C&S # 9 to Antonito its OFFICIAL

I just talked to Richard Gomez at the C&TSRR commission office and # 9 and its tender are due in Antonito, Colorado on Friday 4-30-04.
Antonito will be tearing it down to see what the cost will be to redo it.



roger@thehotel.org

from where - a donation, a loan ???

> from where - a donation, a loan ???

Probably the money they think they'll get from a new operator at Georgetown.

My sources at GLoop have no idea as to why. From what we all know of that lokie, it is a money pit although historical to the site at Georgetown...

Jeff

> from where - a donation, a loan ???

Would be interesting if that's State money, since Colorado has been notoriously behind in paying it's share for the C&TS operation.

teamzurg@earthlink.net

>It has never ceased to amaze me how far people will go rather than admit they made a mistake. Prime point here being to take an engine that was probably worn out long before its' last run in 1937, that was I think last fired during the 1949 Chicago Railroad Fair, has sat mostly outside since 1957 and spend money to restore it to operation? This instead of seeing what it will take to keep an operator who is runs an operation that is pretty well considered a "Cadillac" in the tourist train industry?

Me thinks once they open this engine up, they will probably close it back up again and say forget it. Some artifacts were saved to be enjoyed, not beat to death.

And yes, I am still glad to have lead the charge to get C&S No. 9 repatriated in 1984 from South Dakota to Colorado.

This thing, however is nuts.

>On top of all the work to do at the C&TS to get more locomotives running, when will the Antonito staff have time to tear into #9. The C&TS will be devoting most of it's resources to repairing C&TS engines. IMHO the work on surveying this locomotive will be way on the back burner.

As other have stated here and other boards the condition of #9 is nearly a total basket case. Sure lots of money and time can return any locomotive back to steam. However the investment into this locomotive will not solve the problems of finding serviceable locomotives for a new operator at the Georgetown Loop.

I believe this is a Hail Mary Play by CHS to find a replacement engine. Since they only own this and K-37 #491 on display at the CRM, there are few choices. The other two C&S locomotives in Central City #71 and Idaho Springs, CO. #60 are off limits for restoration. They are the local show pieces of these two communities and they are very possessive of the locos.

What this move by the CHS will cost and later produce is unknown. Also the #9 has asbestos lagging that is leaking onto the ground. I wonder if the trucker moving this loco and later when some inquiring reporter notes the white stuff falling out of the locomotive could creat a PR snafu.

A continuing soap opera. They have a very qualified operator now. It is all speculation as to the motives to replace a successful operator for a unknown or untested rail company. This is one of the biggest jokes in the railway preservation movement next to Steamtown's latest woes.

Dale Brown

C&S # 9 to Antonito its OFFICIAL

> I just talked to Richard Gomez at the
> C&TSRR commission office and # 9 and its
> tender are due in Antonito, Colorado on
> Friday 4-30-04.
> Antonito will be tearing it down to see what
> the cost will be to redo it.


dwbrown1@fuse.net

I am tossing the operator woes aside, as I only have hearsay to go on...

Now, about restoring #9. Hmmm... here's a gal native to the line, that's a good thing. If this were England, there'd be almost no question that she could be steamed. She's no where near the condition some of the Barry scrapyard engines were.

All the naysaying is an unfortunate, and typically American railfan/railroader, response. It's an interesting comparison. The British seem to have a different attitude about restoring steam. Perhaps that's one reason they are so far ahead of us?

Something to chew on...

Rob

Looking at opinions of this around the electrons (and not referring to anyone here at RYPN - no flames), I notice the #9 saga has all the earmarks of what so many projects get confronted with... See if this string of opinions sounds familiar to any project you've been on...

1. The owner is an idiot
2. It'll never run because ____ and ____
3. They should spend money on this thing I like better
4. It's not worth the money
5. It'll never get finished
6. I know everything about this project, even though I know no one involved.

And then, of course, fast forward a year or two, and the same guys will be saying...

1. Ain't it sweet
2. When's it's shakedown run?
3. I'll be trackside the first day it runs. Tickets are too expensive.

If only I were joking...

Rob

> 1. Ain't it sweet
> 2. When's it's shakedown run?
> 3. I'll be trackside the first day it runs.
> Tickets are too expensive.

Told to me by a long-time insider/outsider at a TRAIN meeting some years ago:
The preservation folks will discuss how much it cost.
The railfans will talk about the paint scheme.
And the true railroaders will talk about women.

I must say thatI share Rob's enthusiasm for a genuine piece on home rails. While I'd much rather see GL stay in its current incarnation, if there must be a replacement, then by all means let this be the replacement. Jim


http://nctrans.org

Dissenting opinion-- Rob, I think you've picked a good issue, but a very poor test case.

The larger context around the Number 9 decision involves the fate of the Georgetown Loop. Looking at the decisions made regarding the Loop this spring and summer, I would say the skepticism about CHS's intentions and competence (including skepticism about the fate of Number 9) is not nay-saying--it is an entirely justified reaction to an ample public record established by CHS so far during 2004.

Just becuase we may be too quick in many cases to doubt and too quick to accuse people of being in over their heads, doesn't mean that in this specific case, people are not in fact in way over their heads!


eledbetter@rypn.org

In an article on Denver channel 9 News this morining it was said that Shay #8 was being moved off of the Georgetown Loop site today and equipment was going to be distrubited to Cannon City and the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden.
Roger Mitchell
Master Mechanic
Fort Collins Municipal Railway

n0mcr@netzero.com

Folks,

I know people who have looked over this engine and personal. And they say this is a display engine if there ever was one!

Starting with a new boiler and going on from there. About the only historic fabric left on that locomotive would be a few bits of frame.

Clean it up, paint it for one of its correct color schemes and show it to the people who visit the Loop.

Ted Miles.

ted_miles@nps.gov

I'll defer to you on the larger context, EL. I just don't know enough of the facts.

Seems as if the current GL operator is out of the picture, then the #9 option ain't too bad. Of course, I have enjoyed my visits to the GL under the current ops. I have no way to know the inner workings of the contract.

But, if the deal is done, then #9 under consideration is better than #9 sitting out in the woods for another 20 years. Maybe?

Rob

PS: Is Colorado the most politically-driven railroad preservation state?

> Dissenting opinion-- Rob, I think you've
> picked a good issue, but a very poor test
> case.

> The larger context around the Number 9
> decision involves the fate of the Georgetown
> Loop. Looking at the decisions made
> regarding the Loop this spring and summer, I
> would say the skepticism about CHS's
> intentions and competence (including
> skepticism about the fate of Number 9) is
> not nay-saying--it is an entirely justified
> reaction to an ample public record
> established by CHS so far during 2004.

> Just becuase we may be too quick in many
> cases to doubt and too quick to accuse
> people of being in over their heads, doesn't
> mean that in this specific case, people are
> not in fact in way over their heads!


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Now, about restoring #9. Hmmm... here's a
> gal native to the line, that's a good thing.
> If this were England, there'd be almost no
> question that she could be steamed. She's no
> where near the condition some of the Barry
> scrapyard engines were.

> All the naysaying is an unfortunate, and
> typically American railfan/railroader,
> response. It's an interesting comparison.
> The British seem to have a different
> attitude about restoring steam. Perhaps
> that's one reason they are so far ahead of
> us?

> Something to chew on...

> Rob

Rob, I think you are right about the condition. A couple of things to consider:

1.) Here in the U.S. we have something called the American Bar Association. Although presumably interested in the "public good" It is a private organization which seeks the betterment of itself and its own. It has no comptetion or control. In the grand scheme of things its status and position is protected by the placement of its members at every level of elective or appointed position and its funding by a steady flow of exhoritant settlements. They've mastered the art of controlling everything. In Britain, there's a small but apparently sufficient check in "loser pays".

2.) Few nations have the self awareness of its own history that Britain does. We never developed that and I think with the current state of affairs at academia- which subsists as a child of priveledge on the backs of the great unwashed-and seeks to portray American history as worthy only of opprobrium we never will. The typical academic teaches that the industrial era was oppressive, brutal and ruinous. Why would anybody want to preserve the past when they think its been discarded for a kinder gentler time.



superheater@rrmail.com

> 2.) Few nations have the self awareness of
> its own history that Britain does. We never
> developed that and I think with the current
> state of affairs at academia- which subsists
> as a child of priveledge on the backs of the
> great unwashed-and seeks to portray American
> history as worthy only of opprobrium we
> never will. The typical academic teaches
> that the industrial era was oppressive,
> brutal and ruinous. Why would anybody want
> to preserve the past when they think its
> been discarded for a kinder gentler time.

While I argue with you to a point, I HIGHLY suggest you sit in on one of either H. Roger Grant's or Richard Saunders classes on that subject at Clemson University. Both have written a great deal about the history of the American Railroad with a fairly unbiased and REALISTIC approach that has been highly recognized by railfan and academic alike. No real wonder Robert Franzen of Grand Canyon fame is a former student of Dr. Saunders! In fact, oh great Superheater, you might be surprised how many members of academia are supporters of rail preservation, and of our highly industrialized history.

TJG


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org