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questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9649		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Handsome Devil {John} [ Wed May 12, 2004 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
For the boiler guru's in the know. For starters, what are the requirements for a welder to weld on a firebox or stayed portion of boiler and remain in compliance with the FRA? It seems kind of vauge to me. State codes are different. I do know that the barrel or unstayed portions are more stringent, and usually require xray testing. The documentation or record keeping aside, I can't seem to get a difinitive answer or find it in the FR 49, part 230 book. Does the firebox welding have to be inspected by FRA or an approved inspector? I was looking into taking my pressure vessel test and found a place to do the testing, but it all seems irevelent to FRA regs, or even state for that matter. I don't know if I am even asking the right questions here. In the past the railroad just had a "good" welder do the repairs. After seeing some of the welding repairs done years ago, I cringe. Any light shed on this subject would be appreciated. Thanks, John.
Author:  Marty Knox [ Wed May 12, 2004 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
> For the boiler guru's in the know. For
> starters, what are the requirements for a
> welder to weld on a firebox or stayed
> portion of boiler and remain in compliance
> with the FRA? It seems kind of vauge to me.
> State codes are different. I do know that
> the barrel or unstayed portions are more
> stringent, and usually require xray testing.
> The documentation or record keeping aside, I
> can't seem to get a difinitive answer or
> find it in the FR 49, part 230 book.

CFR 49, part 230 requires that welding on a boiler be done to established railroad practice or an accepted national standard. Welding on an unstayed portion of the boiler requires prior approval by the FRA. The most readily accepted national standard is the "R" stamp issued by The National Board of Boiler & Pressure Vessel inspectors, National Board for short. Essentially you need to have a written welding procedure, and then qualify your weldors to your procedures. The qualification test usually consists of the weldor welding two pieces of pipe together, then cutting strips or 'coupons' out of the pipe to be tested. Two of the coupons are bent one way,'root bend', the other two the other way,'face bend'.

Established railroad procedure is harder to document, and will probably be scrutinized more closely by an FRA inspector.

After the repairs are completed you need to file a Form 19, Report of an Alteration or Repair,with your regional FRA office.


Martyhuck@aol.com
Author:  Jim Adams [ Wed May 12, 2004 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
> For the boiler guru's in the know. For
> starters, what are the requirements for a
> welder to weld on a firebox or stayed
> portion of boiler and remain in compliance
> with the FRA? It seems kind of vauge to me.
> State codes are different. I do know that
> the barrel or unstayed portions are more
> stringent, and usually require xray testing.
> The documentation or record keeping aside, I
> can't seem to get a difinitive answer or
> find it in the FR 49, part 230 book. Does
> the firebox welding have to be inspected by
> FRA or an approved inspector? I was looking
> into taking my pressure vessel test and
> found a place to do the testing, but it all
> seems irevelent to FRA regs, or even state
> for that matter. I don't know if I am even
> asking the right questions here. In the past
> the railroad just had a "good"
> welder do the repairs. After seeing some of
> the welding repairs done years ago, I
> cringe. Any light shed on this subject would
> be appreciated. Thanks, John.

In Illinois any welding on a boiler must be done by an ASME certified welder who also holds an Illinois Boiler Welder certification.
Jim


rrfanjim@charter.net
Author:  Handsome Devil {John} [ Wed May 12, 2004 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
> CFR 49, part 230 requires that welding on a
> boiler be done to established railroad
> practice or an accepted national standard.
> Welding on an unstayed portion of the boiler
> requires prior approval by the FRA. The most
> readily accepted national standard is the
> "R" stamp issued by The National
> Board of Boiler & Pressure Vessel
> inspectors, National Board for short.
> Essentially you need to have a written
> welding procedure, and then qualify your
> weldors to your procedures. The
> qualification test usually consists of the
> weldor welding two pieces of pipe together,
> then cutting strips or 'coupons' out of the
> pipe to be tested. Two of the coupons are
> bent one way,'root bend', the other two the
> other way,'face bend'.

> Established railroad procedure is harder to
> document, and will probably be scrutinized
> more closely by an FRA inspector.

> After the repairs are completed you need to
> file a Form 19, Report of an Alteration or
> Repair,with your regional FRA office.
Thanks for the response. I talked to the local tech school who has the equipment to do the testing. They are qualified {by the state} to do the testing. I am having problems understanding to whom I would submit the test or should I say test results?
Author:  Gorge poindexter [ Thu May 13, 2004 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
> In Illinois any welding on a boiler must be
> done by an ASME certified welder who also
> holds an Illinois Boiler Welder
> certification.
> Jim

What Illinois wants or requires doesn't matter if the engine is going to operate under the FRA. FRA preempts state regs on railroads that are subject to FRA regulation. If it's a non-FRA railroad and loco (such as a live-steamer), then state regs would govern.

If the engine is going to operate under FRA, the qualifications of the welder(s) and the procedures must be submitted to the FRA when work that requires such is going to be done. Not all welding reauires this.
Author:  Adam Mizer [ Thu May 13, 2004 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  NBIC
You should purchase the National Board code book. This will spell it out for you.

http://www.nationalboard.net/article1.html
Author:  Linn W. Moedinger [ Thu May 13, 2004 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
The safest course is to be certified in accordance with ASME Section IX. This is pretty much the default qualification for pressure vessel welding. READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY. It can be a bit confusing insofar as what test qualifies you for what type of welding. If you follow Section IX exactly, and DOCUMENT EVERYTHING, you should be in good shape as long as you stay within the scope of your qualifications, both for procedure and welder.

Good luck. The welding is easy compared to reading the code.

Strasburg Rail Road
linnwm@supernet.com
Author:  John Stewart [ Thu May 13, 2004 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Canadian practices.
John;

I looked at becoming a certified pressure vessel welder up here in Ontario, Canada. The problem with this was that, at least here, the individual does not really hold the certification, the employer does.

I looked into getting certified under my employer (the Canadian Federal Government), but, (at least the branch I work in) contracts any welding to certified welders, if certification is required.

Passing the test is the easy part (it takes practice and a bit of thinking) it's getting and holding the certification.

I'm sure that it is not that far off where you live; our rules and regulations up here often are copied from the USA, and ASME is ASME...

I could certify to do welding on our boilers, but I'd have required to work from within a company; I'm sure no company in it's right mind would "lend" me out for free when if I screwed up they would be on the hook.

JohnS.

> Thanks for the response. I talked to the
> local tech school who has the equipment to
> do the testing. They are qualified {by the
> state} to do the testing. I am having
> problems understanding to whom I would
> submit the test or should I say test
> results?


freewrl-1@rogers.com
Author:  Handsome Devil {John} [ Thu May 13, 2004 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: questions:welding, FRA, and fireboxes
> Many thanks again for the input. I have gathered much of what has been said before, hense the confusion. My thought was to go ahead an get certified to cover my rear. But even this is not as easy to figure out as you already know. Well, I have too many sticks in the fire already, maybe I will keep plugging away with this one too. John

safest course is to be certified in
> accordance with ASME Section IX. This is
> pretty much the default qualification for
> pressure vessel welding. READ THIS SECTION
> CAREFULLY. It can be a bit confusing insofar
> as what test qualifies you for what type of
> welding. If you follow Section IX exactly,
> and DOCUMENT EVERYTHING, you should be in
> good shape as long as you stay within the
> scope of your qualifications, both for
> procedure and welder.

> Good luck. The welding is easy compared to
> reading the code.
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