Has anyone heard anything about this big 2-10-4? I went searching for it (one of the pitifully few steam locomotives in the Pittsburgh Metro area) last weekend, it's supposed to be in a warehouse in McKee's Rocks, PA. A few sources mentioned it's servicable too. Can anyone give me any info on this one?

Tim Botti

tjb231@comcast.net

> Has anyone heard anything about this big
> 2-10-4? I went searching for it (one of the
> pitifully few steam locomotives in the
> Pittsburgh Metro area) last weekend, it's
> supposed to be in a warehouse in McKee's
> Rocks, PA. A few sources mentioned it's
> servicable too. Can anyone give me any info
> on this one?

> Tim Botti

Still there at last report. The particular location is the McKees Rocks Industrial Enterprises on Nichol Ave. This is the former Pressed Steel Car Co. plant and is also home to the Pittsburgh, Allegheny & McKees Rocks Railroad. The loco, along with an ex-L&N water car and an Alco S1, are stored indoors. As for it being operable, not quite. It was steamed a few times while at the B&O Glenwood Shops in the 1980s, but never moved under its own power. It suffered a number of years of outdoor storage at the former P&LE loco shops before going indoors about 5 years ago. The loco was always said to be in excellent mechanical condition, but with the new boiler rules it would take a small fortune, make that a big fortune, to put it on the road again--if any railroad would ever allow such a behemoth on their rails.

K3PRR@verizon.net

> Still there at last report. The particular
> location is the McKees Rocks Industrial
> Enterprises on Nichol Ave.

To whom does the locomotive[s] and equipment belong?

hi_plain@yahoo.com

Some guy by the name of Glenn Campbell.

> To whom does the locomotive[s] and equipment
> belong?


wallis@netdoor.com

> Some guy by the name of Glenn Campbell.

For the record, not the singer of the same name.

I had heard reports stating that the Glenn Campbell in question (loco owner) had passed away, and that the estate had sold or transferred the loco to another individual. Take with the appropriate large hunks of salt, please.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

>I had heard reports stating that the Glenn
> Campbell in question (loco owner) had passed
> away, and that the estate had sold or
> transferred the loco to another individual.
> Take with the appropriate large hunks of
> salt, please.

That would be what I heard. When the auction was held is when Steamtown attemepted to buy the engine. The family didn't accept their offer, perhaps its still owned by the family?

Joshua

Hello All

It wasn't Steamtown, but rather the Steamtown Grand Opening Committie that attempted to purchase the 643 with pooled private funds with plans to then donate it to Steamtown NHS.

The plan fell through in some odd manner. I think Glenn Campbell was partnered in the engine when it was test fired, somehow he later departed or was forced out of the partnership.

When the partnership owning the engine (or the executors of a deceased partner, depending on who you talk to) was in the process of selling the engine, greed took over. The engines owners backed out of the verbal agreement to sell the engine to the Grand Opening Committie for a larger bid by another party (I believe backed by Campbell), who had a few more dollars, but no real plan for the engine "but just had to have it". All to common, so there it sits, although I'm quietly relieved that its not tearing up track along area shortlines today...

Forgive me if I seem a little bitter, but I after watching friend of mine try to salvage the deal and and then lose out in the end, it still eats at me... Guess I'm in a mood today... Hey anyone want to hear how the NS maneuvered the 1218 away from Steamtown USA?

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

> ... Hey anyone want to hear how the NS
> maneuvered the 1218 away from Steamtown USA?

> Dave Crosby

Actually, yes. If it wouldn't be too much trouble. I've always wondered how the 1218 ended up moving from Steamtown to the NS program. At the time it was at the original site in Vermont, correct?

mckay1995@comcast.net

> Hello All

> It wasn't Steamtown, but rather the
> Steamtown Grand Opening Committie that
> attempted to purchase the 643 with pooled
> private funds with plans to then donate it
> to Steamtown NHS.

> The plan fell through in some odd manner. I
> think Glenn Campbell was partnered in the
> engine when it was test fired, somehow he
> later departed or was forced out of the
> partnership.

> When the partnership owning the engine (or
> the executors of a deceased partner,
> depending on who you talk to) was in the
> process of selling the engine, greed took
> over. The engines owners backed out of the
> verbal agreement to sell the engine to the
> Grand Opening Committie for a larger bid by
> another party (I believe backed by
> Campbell), who had a few more dollars, but
> no real plan for the engine "but just
> had to have it". All to common, so
> there it sits, although I'm quietly relieved
> that its not tearing up track along area
> shortlines today...

> Forgive me if I seem a little bitter, but I
> after watching friend of mine try to salvage
> the deal and and then lose out in the end,
> it still eats at me... Guess I'm in a mood
> today... Hey anyone want to hear how the NS
> maneuvered the 1218 away from Steamtown USA?

> Dave Crosby

Well, although you're quite right that 643 would be absolute murder on the shortline track in the Pittsburgh area, at the same time it is slightly disappointing to know we had (at one time) a servicable big steam locomotive sitting around and nobody did anything with it. Now even if Steamtown did purchase it I'd imagine it would be another yard decoration.

Thanks for the info guys, maybe us Pittsburghers will get our steam fix someday. Unless I'm mistaken, it hasn't been since 765 stormed out of Station Square in the mid 80's (made for some AWESOME video) that steam has roamed in the Steel City.

Tim Botti


tjb231@comcast.net

OK, no problem...

The 1218 after being displayed in Vermont was loaned to the Virginia Museum of Transportation for an extended period (3713 went to the Boston Museum of Science about the same time).

With the 1983/84/85 move to Scranton, the Steamtown Foundation sought to reunite the collection. The 3713 was brought down from Vermont without too much trouble (unless you count some axle & bearing troubles). The 1218 proved to be a different matter. For around the same time this was happening, NS was has it's eye on the 1218 at VMOT for operation.

As Steamtown sought to retrieve the 1218, NS forbid the locomotive to be moved over its rails, thereby landlocking the engine. The foundation was caught between a rock and a hard place, unable to put up any real fight due to the huge cost of moveing the collection and faltering revenues in Scranton. Steamtown was also suffering motive power problems as the 1278 and 1293 needed overhauls, the 1246 had firebox problems and the 2317 suffered a cracked cylinder head after conversion back to coal.

Eventually, NS gave former NKP 514, a GP9 and an essentially useless SW8 (could not pull a 2 car wine and cheese train more than 3 MPH) to the Steamtown Foundation in return for title to the 1218.

The engine that NS refused to allow to move over its rails would become an excursion superstar.

This is why I always contended Steamtown should have been given the 1218 back after the excursions ended.

Dave Crosby


bing@epix.net

Actually, what I meant to get out was I'm relived that the 643 isn't beating up track in the SCRANTON area...

Dave Crosby



bing@epix.net

Unless I'm mistaken, it hasn't been
> since 765 stormed out of Station Square in
> the mid 80's (made for some AWESOME video)
> that steam has roamed in the Steel City.

Didn't Ohio Central's ex-CPR G5 No. 1293 pay a visit to Pittsburgh on a special excursion in the last two years?

> Didn't Ohio Central's ex-CPR G5 No. 1293 pay
> a visit to Pittsburgh on a special excursion
> in the last two years?

While rumors of Ohio Central Steam trekking out to Pittsburgh in the next few years are circulating (only rumors at the moment), I'm almost positive we haven't seen the 1293 out here. If I'm wrong, then I'm quite sorry I wasn't there to see it :-)

Tim Botti

tjb231@comcast.net

When did this reportedly happen? I spoke to Mr. Campbell on the phone a couple years ago to try to arrange a visit while I was in town for a friend's wedding. That would have been the summer of 2002. So, if the story you heard puts his death before that date then it seems quite unlikely (unless Glenn has a son named Glenn). However, if it was after that, who knows?

> I had heard reports stating that the Glenn
> Campbell in question (loco owner) had passed
> away, and that the estate had sold or
> transferred the loco to another individual.
> Take with the appropriate large hunks of
> salt, please.


richard@northeasternmaritime.org

> Actually, yes. If it wouldn't be too much
> trouble. I've always wondered how the 1218
> ended up moving from Steamtown to the NS
> program. At the time it was at the original
> site in Vermont, correct?

It sure was at the Vermont site--and that's where it "disappeared" from during some unbearably cold northern New England weather back in the late 1960's. The saga of how #1218 got out of Bellows Falls has been the subject of debate for many years, and now that the locomotive has finally been laid to rest, wouldn't it be neat if the true story could be told. One person who posts here frequently could tell us exactly what happened if he so chooses to do so as he was directly involved in the negotiations to move the locomotive to Roanoke; I'll let his name remain anonymous unless he decides to tell his version of the story.

It's interesting how this story jogs memories of some "oldtimers". I just got of the phone with R. W. Adams who was F. Nelson Blount's Steamtown Superintendant in the very early Steamtown era and who became owner and President of the Green Mountain RR after Nelson's death, and we had an interesting chat about how #1218 departed Steamtown. It seems that in the dead of Winter, the Green Mountain RR received a call from its connecting carrier to the north, the Delaware & Hudson, that it needed urgently to move #1218 out of Riverside. Not wanting to get involved in digging out a frozen-in steam locomotive and preparing it for shipment, the D&H was told if they wanted it that bad--then they could come and get! To the GMRC's surprise, they said they would.

Shortly thereafter, a tall, lanky fellow from a well known mainline excursion operator showed up on the scene to prepare #1218 for shipment. Bob remembers him huddling beside the GMRC roundhouse furnace trying to warm up after numerous trips to Riverside in the frigid weather to work on #1218 and dig her out. Once the 2-6-6-4 was ready, arrangements were made to have a D&H train run over the GMRC from Rutland to Riverside to pick up the steamer. The D&H sent two RS-3's. eight empty hopper cars, and a caboose--operated by a D&H crew with a GMRC pilot. After picking up the steamer at Riverside, the little train headed back north to the D&H interchange in Rutland--making frequent stops enroute so that "the tall, lanky fellow" could make sure the Class A wasn't running "hot". Somewhere, in a long-forgotten slide box, I have slides that I took of this move; I was the only one to photograph it, and there are a couple of published pictures in R. W. Nimke's "GREEN MOUNTAIN RAILROAD" book.

Now, "how did the D&H get involved?", one might ask. It seems that a well known excursion operator knew a then-aspiring, young official on the Norfolk & Western; that young official had good contacts on the D&H. Between the young official and the excursion operator, a deal was made that went something like this: if the excursion operator could arrange for #1218 to be "loaned" to the N&W, then the N&W would forgive some debts the excursion operator had incurred in rebuilding (at a N&W facility) a locomotive leased by the excursion operator from Steamtown.

Could this happen without Steamtown knowing about it? Not exactly. Then Steamtown executive director, the late Edgar T. Mead, Jr., and the excursion operator definitely discussed the lease BUT it was never approved by Steamtown Foundation Board nor put in writing. Unfortunately, Mr. Mead is now dead--but he insisted on numerous occasions when he was alive that the lease was for "15 years". The excursion operator? Well, he can now tell his side of the story for posterity or remain anonymous.

My opinion, for what it's worth: #1218 ended up being restored to a glorious excursion career from a real basket case. That very likely never would have happened if it had not been for a "questionable lease". The anonymous excursion operator should get another feather in his cap for his part in returning another mainline locomotive to steam.

As to what Steamtown got in return for #1218, I'll discuss that in another post. It's past my bedtime now!



fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net