We are currently seeking paint for our wooden Frisco caboose that we are restoring. We know the original color for the caboose is a Sherwin Williams paint called Boxcar Red #116. I am working with a commercial service representative who is researching his resources for us, but discovered that industrial paints that long ago were powder based and the color codes were not archived. We have not found the info we are looking for yet from Frisco historical resources. We have paint chip samples from a later coat of paint, but this is probably not the original color from the time period that we are trying to represent with this restoration.
Are there any resources out there who supply authentic exterior paints, or color code information pertaining to them?
Thanks

Great Plains Transportation Museum

dm@spangenbergphillips.com

> We are currently seeking paint for our
> wooden Frisco caboose that we are restoring.
> We know the original color for the caboose
> is a Sherwin Williams paint called Boxcar
> Red #116. I am working with a commercial
> service representative who is researching
> his resources for us, but discovered that
> industrial paints that long ago were powder
> based and the color codes were not archived.
> We have not found the info we are looking
> for yet from Frisco historical resources. We
> have paint chip samples from a later coat of
> paint, but this is probably not the original
> color from the time period that we are
> trying to represent with this restoration.
> Are there any resources out there who supply
> authentic exterior paints, or color code
> information pertaining to them?
> Thanks

Matching historic colors through the paint manufacturer's records has certainly been problematic. The difficulty comes from the fact that most paints have been re-formulated at least twice since the days they were actually used on the equipment we seek to restore; once in the early seventies to remove lead and a variety of other heavy metals from the formulation, and then again in the nineties to lower their VOC content. It would appear that with most lines of "industrial enamels" no one was much concerned with long term color consistency, and so little attempt was made to preserve the colors. Even DuPont, which supplied coatings to a LOT of fleet owners, has not been of much help in recent times. While at one time they could supply "drift cards" for obsolete colors, and thus create a match in the current line, in my recent dealings with them attempting to track down some Soo Line maroon, they offered a current formulation, but could not reference what it had been matched to. The color had a formulation date in the nineties, and so obviously was a new formulation, since the railroad stopped using this color in the early sixties, but their offer to do a computer match to "any sample I could supply" leads me to believe that this is exactly what the color they offered was; at match to something someone else had submitted, but no record of who or what. Very discouraging, especially since the purpose of the exercise was to confirm that two maroon's with different paint codes spec'd on Soo Line drawings were indeed different colors. Let this be a warning to historical societies and preservationists everywhere; be sure to preserve your own primary source references, don't rely on Sherwin Williams or DuPont to do it for you.

Which brings up a couple of points. Your primary source is the artifact itself; while it very likely has been repainted since leaving the railroad, or repainted in a more modern scheme by the railroad, there should still be samples of the older colors on the car. Try taking off some door hardware, locks and key escutcheons are a good place to start, and see if the door wasn't painted before the hardware was installed. Tops of doors and edges of window sash are also likely places to look, since these surfaces rarely get repainted once installed. If that fails, try sanding down through the paint layers on handrails and other metal parts, which typically hold their paint better than wood.

Also the railroad historical and technical societies that are heavily influenced by modelers have often done extensive work to document the colors used by their favorite railroad, and many have drift cards in their collections. Unfortunately, I don't see a Frisco discussion group on Yahoogroups, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a hist.& tech society that specializes in the Frisco.

Dennis Storzek

dstorzek@elnet.com

Try, George Kirby Jr. Paint Co. - "Makers of Marine Paint for One and A Half Centuries"

163 Mt. Vernon St., New Bedford, MA 02740
(508) 997-9008

May be a long-shot, but Kirby's is all the rave in the marine preservation world for their tradtional colors.

Steve

> We are currently seeking paint for our
> wooden Frisco caboose that we are restoring.
> We know the original color for the caboose
> is a Sherwin Williams paint called Boxcar
> Red #116. I am working with a commercial
> service representative who is researching
> his resources for us, but discovered that
> industrial paints that long ago were powder
> based and the color codes were not archived.
> We have not found the info we are looking
> for yet from Frisco historical resources. We
> have paint chip samples from a later coat of
> paint, but this is probably not the original
> color from the time period that we are
> trying to represent with this restoration.
> Are there any resources out there who supply
> authentic exterior paints, or color code
> information pertaining to them?
> Thanks


Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department
ssweaver@paonline.com

> We are currently seeking paint for our
> wooden Frisco caboose that we are restoring.
> We know the original color for the caboose
> is a Sherwin Williams paint called Boxcar
> Red #116. I am working with a commercial
> service representative who is researching
> his resources for us, but discovered that
> industrial paints that long ago were powder
> based and the color codes were not archived.
> We have not found the info we are looking
> for yet from Frisco historical resources. We
> have paint chip samples from a later coat of
> paint, but this is probably not the original
> color from the time period that we are
> trying to represent with this restoration.
> Are there any resources out there who supply
> authentic exterior paints, or color code
> information pertaining to them?
> Thanks

I have heard that Sherwin-Williams itself has cross referenced three different generations of paint numbers and could track a color forward through these number changes. However, I do not have first hand knowledge.

Brian Norden

Try contacting Dupont. They have extensive records of historical railroad coatings, and many of them have been converted into modern paint numbers. I painted a New York Central sleeper about 5 years ago. With a quick phone call to Dupont I was able to get the NYC paint numbers in Dupont Imron Industrial Paint.

> Try contacting Dupont. They have extensive
> records of historical railroad coatings, and
> many of them have been converted into modern
> paint numbers. I painted a New York Central
> sleeper about 5 years ago. With a quick
> phone call to Dupont I was able to get the
> NYC paint numbers in Dupont Imron Industrial
> Paint.

Whom did you contact at Dupont? I'd like to trace out several Dupont colors used on B&QT PCC 1001. I haven't had much luck making contact with their code library, even using my airline contacts. It would be much appreaciated!

janklorenzen@msn.com

> Whom did you contact at Dupont?

They are in Wilmington DE, but has been about 6 years since I've contacted them and don't recall exactly who I was talking to. However, I purchased the paint from Michigan Paint Supply in Warren, MI. They were also in contact with the same person at Dupont regarding my order. If you contact them I'm sure they can put you on to the right people. Their website is below.

Michigan Paint Supply

> Whom did you contact at Dupont? I'd like to
> trace out several Dupont colors used on
> B&QT PCC 1001. I haven't had much luck
> making contact with their code library, even
> using my airline contacts. It would be much
> appreaciated!

Let me know if you have any luck. I was dealing with Dianne Knapil at DuPont Performance Coatings, 1-800-338-7668 last June, when I came to a dead end. They were happy to give me current paint codes for the colors I wanted; they just could not verify which previous codes they matched, if any. This was significant to me, as I was trying to confirm that two different paint codes listed on Soo Line drawings were NOT the same color, so not knowing which color the new formulation was matched to ended that line of inquiry. They even suggested I send in a sample for matching. I'm afraid that this has happened before, and the person who submitted the sample said "call it Soo Line maroon." The owner of the color is listed as "DIC DISTRIBUTORS", not the Soo Line Railroad.

In my conversations with Ms Knapil, she mentioned that they had a person in the lab that was quite the railfan, but he had passed away a couple of years ago. It seems the friendly contact is gone.

Dennis Storzek

dstorzek@elnet.com

> In my conversations with Ms Knapil, she
> mentioned that they had a person in the lab
> that was quite the railfan, but he had
> passed away a couple of years ago. It seems
> the friendly contact is gone.

If I recall correctly, that would have been a Mr. Rust. There was a posting on this board about his passing. But it is older than the currently available archives.

I recall hearing that he was attempting -- with good success -- to document the colors used by the railroads. In some cases, the same color was sold under different names (and numbers) to different railroads. No way was Burlington going to buy a color that was also bought by the Santa Fe, etc.

Brian Norden

> If I recall correctly, that would have been
> a Mr. Rust. There was a posting on this
> board about his passing. But it is older
> than the currently available archives.

Obviously a man who missed his calling... he should have been working for RUSToleum Corp!

> I recall hearing that he was attempting --
> with good success -- to document the colors
> used by the railroads. In some cases, the
> same color was sold under different names
> (and numbers) to different railroads. No way
> was Burlington going to buy a color that was
> also bought by the Santa Fe, etc.

Some of this information is available on a web site compiled by a custom model painter, the late Sam McCall. Sam is gone, but it appears that someone is maintaining the site. However, if someone needs this info, it might be a good idea to download a copy. Unfortunately, the way the site is constructed, I can't post a direct link to the list. You'll have to go to the link below, then select PAINT/FILLERS, then DuPONT PAINT, then scroll down through a bunch of discussion about Dulux and Duco picked up from one of the modeling discussion groups to find the lists of paint codes. Take the time to read the discussion, as there is some worthwhile information there. I believe the paint color codes presented were mostly copied from EMD styling drawings. At least, most look like Duco numbers to me.

The problem remains, however, in that these are the historic numbers, and now DuPont is claiming that they have no way to reference them. It may well be that they don't want to take the time. They did send me "Color Formula Inquiry" sheets for what they claim are the colors I asked for, but the sheets show no numbers that relate to any historic numbers in my possession. If anyone makes a more cooperative contact at DuPont, I'd still like to track these numbers down, so that the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society can provide color recommendations supported by some documentation.

Dennis Storzek



HO Sam's Custom Painting
dstorzek@elnet.com