The Georgetown Loop Railroad Team has some photos with commentary available. Turn on your sound the home page has Engine #40 sound.
Click on the link below.
Georgetown Loop Railroad Team
roger@thehotel.org
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| Georgetown Loop Railroad Team *PIC*
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9828 |
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| Author: | roger hogan [ Mon May 31, 2004 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Georgetown Loop Railroad Team *PIC* |
The Georgetown Loop Railroad Team has some photos with commentary available. Turn on your sound the home page has Engine #40 sound. Click on the link below. Georgetown Loop Railroad Team roger@thehotel.org |
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| Author: | Art Miller [ Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Georgetown Loop Mess |
Can someone summarize in six or eight paragraphs how this whole thing got so fouled up? Or does it defy explanation in anything less than a 10-page treatise? There is a lesson here, but I am not sure in understand the situation, its players, the economic forces at work, and the local/state politics. amiller@rtms-movietrains.com |
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| Author: | Shane Schabow [ Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Georgetown Loop Mess |
> Can someone summarize in six or eight > paragraphs how this whole thing got so > fouled up? Or does it defy explanation in > anything less than a 10-page treatise? > There is a lesson here, but I am not sure in > understand the situation, its players, the > economic forces at work, and the local/state > politics. To Mr. Art Miller: I am going to try and explain this mess as well as I can, but probably cannot do so without being a bit long winded, and I apologize for this. If you have any questions about what I mention, there are others that can explan better than I, and who actually work for the GLRR. The reason that I can explain some of it is because I have been around while all of this occured and have talked to various GLRR employees, and have personal experience and knowledge of what it takes to run a steam-powered mountain railroad such as the GLRR. To begin, it appears that the “bad blood” and hostile negotiations between the Georgetown Loop Railroad, Inc. and the Colorado Historical Society is not something that recently occurred. It appears that it only recently came to light. It has been brewing for years. There are many things that have preceded this whole mess, which indicated CHS’s lack of knowledge or common sense in running the GLRR. An example is the “Silver Plume Historic Rolling Stock Shelter”, which was built by CHS (with their money, anyway) to house the society’s equipment which includes C&S 2-6-0 # 9, 3 C&S passenger cars, D&RGW caboose #0586, and others. This structure was going to hold all of these pieces of equipment, but was designed inadequately for this purpose. The two tracks in the building do not provide nearly enough space to store CHS’s equipment, the peak of the roof is off center, the doors are not tall enough to allow the caboose to be placed inside without shaving about 6 inches off the cupola, the building is locked to the public, and, finally, CHS never asked the railroad if it was okay to build a building right in the heart of the Silver Plume parking lot. The building now occupies what is equivalent to about 50 former parking places for the railroad. Another example is the Silver Plume Enginehouse. While planning was underway to design this structure, the GLRR openly offered to assist the CHS in the planning process, even going as far as to locate historic roundhouse smoke stacks to be integrated into the new building. The railroad was told very clearly that their input was not needed nor wanted. Per a recent thread on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum, the result was a building that does not have sufficient space to contain all of the necessary tools and storage for such an operation as GLRR. CHS also designed the two interior stall tracks too short for the GLRR’s locomotives. GLRR employees lengthened the track. The building also lacks something that you might think even a historical society would think of – smoke stack(s). So, a steam-powered railroad has a shop building without smokestacks – genius! CHS’s hostile view of the Loop operation stems from a few select individuals’ relationships with the current owners of the GLRR, Mark and Leah Greska. It seems that neither the Greskas nor CHS like each other, and have a strong hate-hate relationship. I should mention that the badgering of CHS is not entirely accurate. It is those few select individuals that are spoiling the situation for all involved, and making their society look like idiots in the process, and it is not the entire society that are being idiots, just to be fair. However, history does not judge groups by the actions of individuals within the group, but by how the group presents itself as a whole, regardless if the actions are those of individuals. So, in a nutshell, things have been boiling for a while, and are the pot is just now boiling over. As far as the contract negotiations that came up, and started the chain of events that we have seen in recent months, basically CHS wants more money out of the GLRR operation. This is stated as various requests of the GLRR, which include an incredible amount of liability insurance, additional maintenance performed by GLRR to the structures owned by CHS in the valley that the RR operates, length of a new contract (CHS wanted 5 years, GLRR wanted another 20 year or long-term deal), among other issues. All of this boils down to CHS wanting a bigger chunk of GLRR’s profits, and viewing the RR as a cash cow that can be milked for every penny they want. So, they are looking for another operator that will operate the RR for them, give them more money, and agree to a short-term (5-10 years). This is all going right alongside the other, personal motives, but is the more prevalent, published explanations of why all of this is happening. Regarding the economic/political powers involved, CHS seems to think it has an endless supply of money to throw at the restoration projects they are contemplating, namely C&S # 9, 60, 71, C&S/RGS #74. But then again, CHS probably wants the new operator to pay for these restorations, on top of all that will come with starting an operation from scratch. Other economic considerations are the economic districts of Georgetown and Silver Plume, along with Clear Creek County as a whole. These economic centers depend upon the RR for immense tourist spending during the summer months. If the RR goes away, there is no telling what exactly will happen to the communities of Clear Creek County, other than none of it will be good for anyone. I realize that I may not have answered a lot of your questions and understanding about this situation. This is due in part to that I do not understand it very well myself. I do hope that this helps in your understanding of some of the details surrounding this very troubling mess that threatens one of the finest tourist railroads in the world. Sincerely, Shane Schabow GLRR devotee dcs310@comcast.net |
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| Author: | Erik Ledbetter [ Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Georgetown Loop Mess |
I think Shane has done a very good job of summarizing matters. His account is even-handed and corresponds to my outsider's understanding of the situation as well. eledbetter@rypn.org |
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| Author: | Dale W. Brown [ Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Georgetown Loop Mess |
> I think Shane has done a very good job of > summarizing matters. His account is > even-handed and corresponds to my outsider's > understanding of the situation as well. Just one thing to add to this mess. Most of the Narrow Gauge Preservation and Tourist Industry have spoke out that finding a adequate replacement operator is nearly impossible. The narrow gauge community knows that the availablity of sufficent operating equipment is nearly non-existant. A few cars here and a coach there and few, if any operating steam locomotives. All of the locomotives mentioned above in Shane's are years away from operating. Only C&S #71 operated in recent years. It is now stuffed and mounted in Black Hawk, CO. and has not had the new FRA inspections done or have any of the other mentioned locos. All of the locomotives are owned by different entities and all will have complicated contracts or leases to allow for restoration. All of the steam operators or rebuilders would probably need more than a year and mega bucks to restore any of the locos. One last thing about the Car Building in Silver Plume. When the CHS architect was designing the building, Lindsay Ashby noted that the location would not allow the connection to the active mainline. The CHS said that design was OK and would work. The track was never connected. So the building has three passenger cars that stuffed and locked away. Also only a partial restoration of the Coach and Baggage Car was started and never completed. NONE of the CHS equipment is usable for passenger revenue at this time. So there you have it, more of the CHS helping the GLR. The C&S #9 has been moved in two parts to two different locations for restoration. Locomotive to Strasburg, CO and the Tender to Antonito, CO. Both the loco and tender were going to Antonito, however when Asbestos was discovered in the tender, the locomotive was sent to Strasburg when the C&TS refused shipment of the engine. The restoration has not even started and already there is much discussion on the NGDF about the wisdom of this project? The CHS has sponsored many other projects in all parts of the State and have preserved many historical structure and sites. Also other railroad restoration projects have been done by the CHS, however none have been operating steam locomotives. It is a shame the whole organization may be painted as screwed up and making foolish decisions due to only a handful of Executives at the higher levels. This meladrama has not played out yet and the Fat Lady is not yet warming up in the wings. It is just playing out one act of a multi act tragedy in the making. Hopefully a surprise ending will bring back the hero and everyone will live happily ever after? Dale Brown dwbrown1@fuse.net |
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| Author: | Bob Yarger [ Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | How much does the public know? |
I'm just wondering how much the Colorado public knows about this? As CHS is a state-funded organization, I wonder if enough negative publicity in the general media might bring about changes? I know the "last year" of the present operators has been publicised, and that CHS has advertised for new operators, but have the Greskas, Ashbys, GLR supporters and employees and CHS officials been interviewed in the general media? ryarger@rypn.org |
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| Author: | Art Miller [ Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Airplane Reading |
I have printed out a copy of your post, and plan to read and study it while riding Delta's Big Iron Bird tonight. The endorsement of Erik Ledbetter says your summary is highly worthy of printing and studious review. Many thanks for the time and effort it took to prepare the post. It is interchange like this that I believe truly advances the railroad preservation movement. amiller@rtms-movietrains.com |
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| Author: | Dale W. Brown [ Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How much does the public know? |
> I'm just wondering how much the Colorado > public knows about this? As CHS is a > state-funded organization, I wonder if > enough negative publicity in the general > media might bring about changes? I know the > The news media and newspapers have been following this. There is a lot of misinformation being put out. The CHS is putting a spin on the whole thing as there are trains, we will be back in 2005, we are helping the community through this. Check out the continuing discussion on the NGDF. Dale Brown dwbrown1@fuse.net |
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