After reading through all of the posts in reply to Mr. Rimmasch's future steam outlook I began thinking of an idea. The biggest post that sticks out in my head is Mr. Rowlands reply. This is the part of his reply that really hit me:

I am working on an effort to establish a Mainline Steam Foundation as a new 501C3 organization with the sole purpose of raising $20 Million from now senior wealthy steam fans through their wills,so that there is a $ legacy available and dedicated to keeping some mainline power alive and well into the new Century! Seems to me that's the only way we can be assurred of Mainline steams future.

This idea really got me thinking about what else could be done with a company or organization like this. $20 Million would go a long way in restoring and maintaining mainline steam but it certainly wont do anything to help them get out on the road. So I started thinking about what could be done with $20 Million or any amount of money that would help get steam back on the mainline.

This became my main focus. It may have been suggested before but I've never heard of something like this ever being attempted so I thought I would write it to everyone here and get your suggestions on if it could work or what would have to go into it to make it work. Here is my idea:

A company or even a non-profit organization is started for the specific purpose of getting steam back on the mainline. Instead of trying to fight the class 1 railroads it will abide to their rules. The company will cary a 25 Million insurance plan or whatever railroads like CSX and CN would require to run on their rails. Groups like Fort Wayne with the 765 or any other group without the funds to carry an insurance policy of that magnitude would then lease their engines on a short term lease. Say 4 or 5 days or however long it takes to ferry the engines on the class 1 and run the trips. At the end of the trips the lease expires.
In order to keep a policy as high as required by the class 1s the company or organization gets a percentage of trips and accepts donations. The money is out there if people are willing to look for it.
I believe this would allow steam engines to run trips on Class 1s and have the amount of insurance required. I know that railroads like NS would still not allow steam because of their no-steam policy but this could certainly allow for trips on roads that say we dont mind steam if you can meet our requirements.
Sure there are a lot of details that would have to be worked out for something like this to happen but I believe it could work.
What do you guys think?

gregudolph-nospam-@yahoo.com

Seems to me that there was once an outfit called "Mainline Steam Foundation" in New Jersey, about 1974-77. They operated some FEC 148 and CPR 972 trips on LV, CNJ and NY&LB lines. Perhaps we could "license" that name to your new group?

Seriously, do you really think there are "senior wealthly steam fans" out there loose? Ones who are not already putting their bucks into steam chooches?

And, what makes you think that the remaining Class One roads want a steam chooch on their rails? The high insurance numbers are simply a way to say "get lost" nicely. Come up with the bucks for the insurance (and it will be much harder than you think), and there will be another "reason" they can't let you play choochoo on the NS, UP, CSX, etc.

I suspect you have a lot of enthusiasm and love for the steam locomotive, and there is nothing on earth like a big engine on the main line. Tilting at windmills will only get you frustrated and burned out, and will do nothing to get or keep an engine hot. Let's pick our battles, guys, and support the operations that work, not set up new ones. If your proposal was to buy a redundant stretch of mainline track, say 30-50 miles (see the Great Central Railway in England-- even has a four-track section!!), and make it a haven for the big engines, then I would think that is more rational.

With a few exceptions, and they are always one or two people on the Class One (who will retire, transfer, change their minds) away from "NO", big steam on someone else's tracks (CSX, NS, CN, etc.) is dead. Get used to it and support (with a check or your time) the ones we have---OHCR, Steamtown, Grand Canyon, 1225, etc. And the smaller tourist / museum lines...the technology is the same, and it's a good place to learn.

75-125-150 ton locomotives can put on a great show, and run in far more places (like friendly
regional and shortline railroads) than can massive 4-8-4s and 2-8-4s.

The future of steam locomotives is indeed enthusiastic young steam fans (it was only yesterday that I was one, bugging RER, Jr. about 759 going back to VT), but a dose of reality is a good thing, too. Helps keep the frustration level down.

However, if you get an old-timer to part with 6 or 7 figures, I know a certain light Pacific....

> After reading through all of the posts in
> reply to Mr. Rimmasch's future steam outlook
> I began thinking of an idea. The biggest
> post that sticks out in my head is Mr.
> Rowlands reply. This is the part of his
> reply that really hit me:

> I am working on an effort to establish a
> Mainline Steam Foundation as a new 501C3
> organization with the sole purpose of
> raising $20 Million from now senior wealthy
> steam fans through their wills,so that there
> is a $ legacy available and dedicated to
> keeping some mainline power alive and well
> into the new Century! Seems to me that's the
> only way we can be assurred of Mainline
> steams future.

> This idea really got me thinking about what
> else could be done with a company or
> organization like this. $20 Million would go
> a long way in restoring and maintaining
> mainline steam but it certainly wont do
> anything to help them get out on the road.
> So I started thinking about what could be
> done with $20 Million or any amount of money
> that would help get steam back on the
> mainline.

> This became my main focus. It may have been
> suggested before but I've never heard of
> something like this ever being attempted so
> I thought I would write it to everyone here
> and get your suggestions on if it could work
> or what would have to go into it to make it
> work. Here is my idea:

> A company or even a non-profit organization
> is started for the specific purpose of
> getting steam back on the mainline. Instead
> of trying to fight the class 1 railroads it
> will abide to their rules. The company will
> cary a 25 Million insurance plan or whatever
> railroads like CSX and CN would require to
> run on their rails. Groups like Fort Wayne
> with the 765 or any other group without the
> funds to carry an insurance policy of that
> magnitude would then lease their engines on
> a short term lease. Say 4 or 5 days or
> however long it takes to ferry the engines
> on the class 1 and run the trips. At the end
> of the trips the lease expires.
> In order to keep a policy as high as
> required by the class 1s the company or
> organization gets a percentage of trips and
> accepts donations. The money is out there if
> people are willing to look for it.
> I believe this would allow steam engines to
> run trips on Class 1s and have the amount of
> insurance required. I know that railroads
> like NS would still not allow steam because
> of their no-steam policy but this could
> certainly allow for trips on roads that say
> we dont mind steam if you can meet our
> requirements.
> Sure there are a lot of details that would
> have to be worked out for something like
> this to happen but I believe it could work.
> What do you guys think?

What would be the feasability of purchasing some track miles no longer used or perhaps transfering the rights of abandonned track temporarily over to a non-profit group (off load it from a railroad and still in the end alowing it to be reclaimed if traffic warrants). There are many stretches of unused track - especially in areas where maintenance is not such a big issue. This way the insurance issue is less daunting and permission is not required and perhaps cities or states could subsidize ownership as a means of drawing tourists? Any thoughts?

MG2AM@AOL.com

> What would be the feasability of purchasing
> some track miles no longer used or perhaps
> transfering the rights of abandonned track
> temporarily over to a non-profit group (off
> load it from a railroad and still in the end
> alowing it to be reclaimed if traffic
> warrants). There are many stretches of
> unused track - especially in areas where
> maintenance is not such a big issue. This
> way the insurance issue is less daunting and
> permission is not required and perhaps
> cities or states could subsidize ownership
> as a means of drawing tourists? Any
> thoughts?

That unused track may be just full of rotten ties,light rail,substandard bridges...there are several reasons why a railroad might abandon a piece of trackage. Other questions to consider are; how fast are you wanting to run,what are your operational requirements,motive power,physical characteristics of the line,axccess to metropolitan areas.....and you still have to deal with the insurance issue.

Running a railroad...let alone running the trains...is an expensive proposition,even if you have somehow have great track,great scenery,and great equipment. It all consumes itself at am alarming rate. It can be done,but remember there are many ways to skin a cat.Contact me back channel and I'll assist you in any way I can...



kbcotton@flash.net

> What would be the feasability of purchasing
> some track miles no longer used or perhaps
> transfering the rights of abandonned track
> temporarily over to a non-profit group (off
> load it from a railroad and still in the end
> alowing it to be reclaimed if traffic
> warrants). There are many stretches of
> unused track - especially in areas where
> maintenance is not such a big issue. This
> way the insurance issue is less daunting and
> permission is not required and perhaps
> cities or states could subsidize ownership
> as a means of drawing tourists? Any
> thoughts?

As I said in one of the threads below. Money for restoration of locos is not the big issue here, its where to run them. Get the track and you have control!!!!! Everything else can be worked out from there.

What we need is a private foundation to establish one or several rail routes where steam can go to be operated without insurance restrictions, which is the big limiting factor today.

This would be like Steamtown, but without the government involved. Something along the lines of Ohio Central, except that it would not be privately owned, thereby insuring it could not be sold in the future.

Imagine if you can, a 200 mile long line with access for your mainline, or branchline steamer to operate. Schedules could be set-up to run excursions with different engines on different weekends, etc. Maybe have some regular power to run daily excursions, then the guest locos periodically.

As with everything preservation, funding would be the problem.

I agree that tracks are more important that locomotive restorations at this time. Whats the point of restoring a Santa Fe 4-8-4 if BNSF refused to run it.
Just food for thought.
Greg Scholl


sales@gregschollvideo.com

Mainline Steam Foundation is still registered in NJ, per the Secretary of States website.

> Seems to me that there was once an outfit
> called "Mainline Steam Foundation"
> in New Jersey, about 1974-77. They operated
> some FEC 148 and CPR 972 trips on LV, CNJ
> and NY&LB lines. Perhaps we could
> "license" that name to your new
> group?


edm5970@earthlink.net

Where is the money coming from?? "Money for the restoration of locos is not the big issue"??? Ask the 765 guys (one example) how long it took and how hard they worked to come up with the dollars for her rebuild. And there are other members of the "Taken-Apart Club" out there, scratching for dinero to fix a worn-out engine.

So, now you want to buy and MAINTAIN a 50-100-200 mile railroad?? Let's see, figure to maintain to (not fix up to) FRA Class 2 track (25 mph freight, 30 passenger), about $6000-10,000 per mile per year. I'll let you do the math. You'll have to sell a lot of tickets just to pay for trackwork--- 3000 ties per mile, 30 year average life, 100 ties per mile per year "keeps you even" (maintains), average is $50 per tie inserted in track, so $250K per year for tie replacement on that 50-mile line. And we haven't surfaced that track yet. Or replaced rail. Or added any ballast. Or sprayed for weeds-brush. Want go faster? It'll cost ya. More, a lot more.

And, what about.....coaches? Who wants to ride behind steam power sealed up in Amfleet cars or a/c streamliners? The old open-window heavyweights are way past the time they were due for the $200K rebuilds they desperately need to be in service safely. Even 50s era streamline equipment will cost $10-15K per car per year to maintain for that road.

And, how are you going to get that big 4-8-4 from, oh, let's say Pine Bluff to somewhere in Ohio or Indiana? Remember Fred Bailey's comments about the non-move of 1218 by a certain big railroad? If the big road says NO, what will it cost to truck that big engine 500-1000 miles (and back again).

Look, it's nice to dream and fantisize. I do it, too. But, c'mon, stop being ridiculous. THERE. IS. NO. MONEY. FOR. THIS. "FOUNDATION".

If anyone is really serious about a "fund-ation", then let's look at just how much is currently available in grants to the rail preservation community, grants from railroad-oriented outfits. TRAINS gives a $10K grant every year (their competitor does nothing). MassBay RRE has the Webb Grants, $10K per year to a New England rail-related project. NRHS and a couple of others add up to about $50K per year, mostly in $1000-3000 doses (goes real far in this biz, eh?). I never heard of, say Pentrex, donating $5-10K to ATSF 3751 or SP&S 700. Or any of the book publishers, either. You get the idea.

Get into the trenches and see the reality here. The Strasburgs and a few others will survive, the others will not. And the big engines, with very few exceptions (1225, for one) will be parked again, permanently this time. Enjoy it now, it will be over someday, perhaps sooner that you want it to be.

> As I said in one of the threads below. Money
> for restoration of locos is not the big
> issue here, its where to run them. Get the
> track and you have control!!!!! Everything
> else can be worked out from there.

> What we need is a private foundation to
> establish one or several rail routes where
> steam can go to be operated without
> insurance restrictions, which is the big
> limiting factor today.

> This would be like Steamtown, but without
> the government involved. Something along the
> lines of Ohio Central, except that it would
> not be privately owned, thereby insuring it
> could not be sold in the future.

> Imagine if you can, a 200 mile long line
> with access for your mainline, or branchline
> steamer to operate. Schedules could be
> set-up to run excursions with different
> engines on different weekends, etc. Maybe
> have some regular power to run daily
> excursions, then the guest locos
> periodically.

> As with everything preservation, funding
> would be the problem.

> I agree that tracks are more important that
> locomotive restorations at this time. Whats
> the point of restoring a Santa Fe 4-8-4 if
> BNSF refused to run it.
> Just food for thought.
> Greg Scholl

As a railroader, I don't see much hope for mainline steam outside of company sponsorship ala' UP/CP. On the D&H, we have one of the most scenic runs along Lake Champlain you can imagine, but are barely able to run the trains we have, largely because so much track was removed in earlier times. Today's railroads are mostly too busy and/or uncaring to bother with steam runs anymore. Shortlines, often managed by severed bozos who previously helped run the class ones into the ground, may not be much better, and have poor track structure.

Of the big steam groups, I think the 1225 folks have the right idea. Steam the engine gently and occasionally, letting wannabe Casey Jones' run it for a fee on local trackage. It will last a lot longer that way, and might not become a dismantled hulk for the next generation to deal with. On lookers can gaze at the machine's raw power up close, like standing next to a live dragon; just as impressive as a 60mph runby, without all the wear and tear. When you're eight cars back in a sealed-window coach, it's hard to tell what is pulling the train anyway - let some E8s do the excursions - they are more historically suited to most of the trainsets anyway. UP's Streamliner consist is an excellent example.

Better yet, operate the steamer at a genuine historic roundhouse complex, preferably one that maintained the engine in days of yore, creating a scene from the past that rivals Colonial Williamsburg in authenticity. If you're only hostling, you don't need a mainline. Visitors will be just as impressed and the engine will be in steam longer.

ryarger@rypn.org

> Where is the money coming from?? "Money
> for the restoration of locos is not the big
> issue"??? Ask the 765 guys (one
> example) how long it took and how hard they
> worked to come up with the dollars for her
> rebuild. And there are other members of the
> "Taken-Apart Club" out there,
> scratching for dinero to fix a worn-out
> engine.

> So, now you want to buy and MAINTAIN a
> 50-100-200 mile railroad?? Let's see, figure
> to maintain to (not fix up to) FRA Class 2
> track (25 mph freight, 30 passenger), about
> $6000-10,000 per mile per year. I'll let you
> do the math. You'll have to sell a lot of
> tickets just to pay for trackwork--- 3000
> ties per mile, 30 year average life, 100
> ties per mile per year "keeps you
> even" (maintains), average is $50 per
> tie inserted in track, so $250K per year for
> tie replacement on that 50-mile line. And we
> haven't surfaced that track yet. Or replaced
> rail. Or added any ballast. Or sprayed for
> weeds-brush. Want go faster? It'll cost ya.
> More, a lot more.

> And, what about.....coaches? Who wants to
> ride behind steam power sealed up in Amfleet
> cars or a/c streamliners? The old
> open-window heavyweights are way past the
> time they were due for the $200K rebuilds
> they desperately need to be in service
> safely. Even 50s era streamline equipment
> will cost $10-15K per car per year to
> maintain for that road.

> And, how are you going to get that big 4-8-4
> from, oh, let's say Pine Bluff to somewhere
> in Ohio or Indiana? Remember Fred Bailey's
> comments about the non-move of 1218 by a
> certain big railroad? If the big road says
> NO, what will it cost to truck that big
> engine 500-1000 miles (and back again).

> Look, it's nice to dream and fantisize. I do
> it, too. But, c'mon, stop being ridiculous.
> THERE. IS. NO. MONEY. FOR. THIS.
> "FOUNDATION".

> If anyone is really serious about a
> "fund-ation", then let's look at
> just how much is currently available in
> grants to the rail preservation community,
> grants from railroad-oriented outfits.
> TRAINS gives a $10K grant every year (their
> competitor does nothing). MassBay RRE has
> the Webb Grants, $10K per year to a New
> England rail-related project. NRHS and a
> couple of others add up to about $50K per
> year, mostly in $1000-3000 doses (goes real
> far in this biz, eh?). I never heard of, say
> Pentrex, donating $5-10K to ATSF 3751 or
> SP&S 700. Or any of the book publishers,
> either. You get the idea.

> Get into the trenches and see the reality
> here. The Strasburgs and a few others will
> survive, the others will not. And the big
> engines, with very few exceptions (1225, for
> one) will be parked again, permanently this
> time. Enjoy it now, it will be over someday,
> perhaps sooner that you want it to be.

If you read my post, I am sure you saw at the bottom that I felt money was the biggest issue, so you don't need to make that point to me!!!

Its always about money, for track, restorations, coaches, and everything else. Thats why we don't have more than we have now. I just feel like without trackage, there is no sense wasting millions on useless restorations. Somehow the Brits make this work, but they they get money from the lotteries don't they??? Gee what an idea! Ours are supposed to fund schools, yet we never seem to see more than a small percent of it, and in fact had to have another levy.

No, there is no silver bullit, and I sure don't have the answers to fix everything.

Greg

sales@gregschollvideo.com

Somehow the Brits make
> this work, but they they get money from the
> lotteries don't they???

When it comes to track there is an even more fundamental difference--since nationalization, main line track in Britain has been, for all rpacticial puposes, a public utility, and access to it could and still can be gained through public suasion of various kinds.

Here, mainline track has always been private property, with limited exceptions.

The UK public can pressure BR/Railtrack/what have you to be accomodating to excursions. No one can exert similar levarage on a US Class 1.

eledbetter@rypn.org

I have to agree that there isn't much chance of making either the idea of a foundation with enough wherewithal to meet the major carrier's insurance requirements or finding, buying and then maintaining even 50 miles of track work.

Case in point: it's been posted here and on other boards about how great it would be to see Jack Showalter's trains on the old C&O now that the Buckingham Branch will be leasing the line. Go take a look at the the STB website and lease that's been filed with the STB. It doesn't prohibit excursion trains - but if you want to run one, it has to be an Amtrak special or you have to come up with $500 million of insurance. That's right, half a BILLION Dollars of coverage. I don't think we'll be seeing anyone's excursion trains on that line. An Amtrak special, perhaps, but nothing more.

As for getting track someplace, remember that the key has to be - location, location, location. There has to be lots and lots of tourists already there. You won't get Mom and Dad and their 2.5 kids to drive an hour out of their way just to ride a train. Well, maybe for Thomas. And we railfans don't amount to large enough numbers to pay the bills. So, if there's "lots of unused track" as one poster has said, my question would be: "And just how much of that track isn't out in the middle of nowhere?" I'd sure like to see some specific examples of track that isn't being used which is close enough to major population centers to stand a chance of attracting enough riders.

Finally, there's the issue of transporting locos to and from "the track". The last I heard, if there's friction bearings, forget it, load it on flatcars or flatbed trucks. Or pay for a special move and be prepared to take a long time getting from point A to point B while the revenue freights go by.

What's the answer? I wish I knew. It seems to lie with those few shortline or regional railroads that support steam, like the Ohio Central. Help them any way you can. Volunteer, ride the trains or at least buy a ticket even if all you want to do is take pictures. (Especially if all you want to do is take pictures!)



rdg2124@verizon.net

> Of the big steam groups, I think the 1225
> folks have the right idea. Steam the engine
> gently and occasionally, letting wannabe
> Casey Jones' run it for a fee on local
> trackage. It will last a lot longer that
> way . . .

Thanks, Bob. Gentility isn't necessarily the goal. Exhibiting the engine is, and communicating its historical message and, not incidentally, selling bunches of museum admissions or tickets. If this requires doing 60 m.p.h., we're ready.

In any case, the operative word is "goal." Above, it was pointed out how it's become virtually impossible to get a big carrier to let you haul trainloads of people over their lines behind a steam locomotive. If that's your goal, then you're out of luck. But if your goal is to exhibit an operating steam engine and passenger liability is a problem, then: ditch the passengers. If the engine itself is the object of the program, you don't need to haul people to achieve it. The Steam Railroading Institute will be testing this proposition with our portable museum train behind the 1225 over the next few years.

I find it interesting to note that in the years since we started Project 1225 (admittedly, we took a while) ALL SIX of the current large carriers or their principal predecessors have hosted their own steam-locomotive operations to one extent or another: CN, CSX, UP, NS, BNSF and now CPR. Obviously not all at once, but it can't be said that these corporations are opposed to steam operations. They just may not be willing to handle a 800-seat train on your schedule.

Regional lines aren't necessarily opposed to the idea either. If presented with a businesslike proposal that makes money for everyone involved, much can be done so long as everyone is willing to walk away from an idea where the numbers don't add up with no hard feelings. With this approach, even the long-distance passenger excursion may not be extinct.

To see this principle in operation, and to ride a passenger train behind a steam engine unassisted by Diesels over a 130-mile round trip, and see PM 1225 on display in a scenic lakeside park in the town where the Shay was invented, ride Lake Central Rail Tours August 14-15 trip from Owosso to Cadillac, Michigan. Last year's version of this trip was absolutely gorgeous, but the thin attendance made me wonder if the steam excursion finally disappeared whether anyone would miss it. I expect that everyone who is mourning the end of steam passenger trips will want to be there this time. Call (866) 608-0746 or see www.lakecentralrailtours.com for tickets.

And don't miss the short side trip to the sand mine at Yuma. A Nathan 6-chime sounds entirely different when filtered through the pine trees that have grown back since Ephraim Shay logged over Wexford County.

Aarne Frobom

Ross' post about a foundation also taps into another trait of Brisith preservation: private investment from those with the resources to do it. Remember, we only have Edaville, Steamtown and the Ohio Central because men of some means put their money up.

I know there are a thousand differences about why the Brits have what they have and we don't. But...

... and this is a controversial but...

many involved here in the US are quick to say "it can't happen here." That attitude may be the death knell, more than insurance or lawyers.

Just reading responses here, there is so much "can't do" attitude that I wonder if it is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

The "Culture of Failure" is so prevalent in some rail circles it makes me wonder how anything gets done. And, when it rubs against those who don't damn themselves to repeating mistakes, it can get ugly. I've seen it. I am sure you have, too. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff flung at individuals who have made personal sacrifices in the name of preservation... and those flinging consider themselves "preservationists." Unreal.

So when I hear an idea from a Ross, or Jerry, or Linn... well, I listen. They have walked the walk and... quite frankly, that status-quo ain't getting us anywhere. I'd rather follow great ideas -- mine or yours, it maters not -- and reach for the stars rather than just fail without trying.

I was introduced to steam in my early years, not thanks to people who said it couldn't be done, but thanks to people who took risks to do it. I aid it before, and I will say it again, here's a partial roll of those who mattered to my youthful experience and life-long passion (will our names be on the next generation's lists?): Rowland (who took the time answer a letter from a 4 year-old!), Hart (who never turned away my questions as a kid), Hubbard, Blount, Smith (who has been a gracious acquaintance), Clark, Moedinger, and so many more...

Soapbox put away.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

Sopabox taken out!

> Just reading responses here, there is so
> much "can't do" attitude that I
> wonder if it is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

This one gets slightly under my skin. Since I often ask what I hope are polite but probing questions of some ideas that float by, I guess many would consider me a nay-sayer.

From where I sit, the highest compliment one can pay is to take another person's idea seriously enough to ask hard but respectful questions. If there are answers, excellent. If the answers have to be found or the idea rethought, then the idea is better off for it. If that's nay-saying, then I for one intend to make the most of it!

OK, soapbox away!

eledbetter@rypn.org

Take me out from under your skin. ;-) There's a huge difference. You are hardly an example of a negative cultural vibe.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com