Can anybody discuss the ownership issues related to these engines?

superheater62@yahoo.com

> Can anybody discuss the ownership issues
> related to these engines?
One of the A units and the B unit are owned outright by the Anthracite RHS. The second A unit is owned by Tri-State Railway H.S., an NRHS chapter. They leased their A unit to ARHS. My understanding is that the original lease has expired, but Tri-State and ARHS have been verbally extending the lease on a year to year basis. Originally, Tri-State said the eventual goal was to repaint their F as a Lackawanna unit. Many of the people who originally purchased the F for Tri-State are now gone so I don't know if that is still the plan.

A recent Jim Thorpe-area news story made it sound like the F's were in danger because their current operator, Rail Tours, Inc. won't be running Jim Thorpe excursions after this year.

Obviously, no ill will befall the engines (only the A's are running this year I think). The ARHS has a lot on its plate, and owns a lot of equipment both from the anthracite roads and (like the F's) from other roads.

The F's have been a source of controversy in the past. It would be nice to see them repatriated to New England at some point after the ARHS is done with them.

Ideally (I am speaking as a member of an ARHS member organization), I would like to see the ARHS not spend money on artifacts unrelated to the anthracite roads.

That would mean returning the F3-A and F7B to New England. Perhaps donating the BAR F-3A to the Railroad Museum of New England and the B&M F-7B to the 470 Railroad Club to return it to it's A-unit which operates on the Conway Scenic?

Who knows, maybe some kind of trade could be worked out that sends all three F's to New England museums in exchange for some actual anthracite road equipment?

There are loads of wood and steel LNE cabooses in New Hampshire, at least a couple of DL&W coaches and assorted other hard-coal goodies up north. At least one of those wood LNE cabins is for sale, BTW.

The Fs are in good hands at the ARHS, but at some point, a decision needs to be made on whether the ARHS funds are best supported preserving anthracite road history, or recreating it. Both sides have thier good and bad points.

Other anthracite road preservation projects, like Hawk Mountain's CNJ RS-3, have had little result as of late, while in contrast the Reading Tech guys are moving forward with a fantastic plan and an ever-growing collection. I dare say the Reading collection is the best preserved example of 1960's era railroading in the US.

There was an element of animosity in the ARHS going back a decade or so, which seems to have imporved greatly. The ARHS produces a fantastic magazine and contributes meaningfully to the preservation of hard-coal railroading. IMHO, the F's are a drain of resources. While the ARHS has spent time and energy on them, other true anthracite artifacts have met the torch.

It is a tough decision to make, and I am not second guessing the ARHS, just looking at the issues on the table.

If I wanted my opinion to count, I would become active in the group, so please consider this just an observation and not a gripe or flame.

Rob

> One of the A units and the B unit are owned
> outright by the Anthracite RHS. The second A
> unit is owned by Tri-State Railway H.S., an
> NRHS chapter. They leased their A unit to
> ARHS. My understanding is that the original
> lease has expired, but Tri-State and ARHS
> have been verbally extending the lease on a
> year to year basis. Originally, Tri-State
> said the eventual goal was to repaint their
> F as a Lackawanna unit. Many of the people
> who originally purchased the F for Tri-State
> are now gone so I don't know if that is
> still the plan.


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> There was an element of animosity in the
> ARHS going back a decade or so, which seems
> to have imporved greatly.

The animosity had to do with the very question of the group owning equipment at all. The people buying and restoring the equipment were at odds with the people preserving the paper and publishing. It appears they were able to come to a compromise. Other groups ended up with the equipment people "taking over" and the history people going elsewhere. The NYS&W T&HS - New Jersey Midland RHS comes to mind.

How did the ARHS come to terms with this inherent conflict? How have other groups dealt with the equipment vs. paper/publishing issue?

Hello

Knowing nothing about the ownership issues, I can report this. Six weeks ago I visited Jim thorpe and the two A units were tied down on the south end of the display track by the station, looking quite aged. RTI was not yet operating.

Two weeks ago I visited Jim Thorpe and RTI was using a leased ex Conrail U-boat and the F's were no where in sight. Presumably they were moved down to the turntable area for storage or mech work.

Is the ex CNJ RS 3 owned by the same group? Now that is a shame. I remember that engine being spotless in the 80's and the last time I saw it it looked like it was on the Communipaw dead line...

Just first hand accounts, no opinions implied...

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

> How have other groups
> dealt with the equipment vs.
> paper/publishing issue?

My knowledge of the history of rail preservation in Chicago is that the paper group Central Electric Railfans Association lost opportunities at preserving a wooden North Shore Line car, then later Chicago and West Towns cars, due to a commitment towards historical documentation and not large artifact preservation. This led to the formation of a splinter group which preserved Indiana Railroad 65 and later became IRM. A second splinter group tried to organize as a short line operating a remnant of the CA&E, and this led to the creation of the Fox River Trolley Museum. Multiple-focus Museum of Science and Industry was very selective about the token additions of rail items to its collection, which never seemed to congeal as a rail-museum subgroup in the organization. The other paper group, NRHS, did collect some rail equipment, notably the tender and replica coach from the C&NW's Pioneer, after the locomtive was entombed in the Chicago Historical Society. Last I knew, the tender was at a CA&E station in Villa Park, and the Coach was in a doctor's backyard in DesPlaines.

It is my general observation that the rise of volunteer-driven rail museums is closely related to the post-WW2 rise and organization of the middle class. I wonder if part of the struggle of these groups in upcoming years will not only be the reduction of numbers of individuals who are interested in rail preservation, but the number who can financially afford to support it due to the decline of the middle class (shift of taxation off the wealthy, becoming wage slaves due to debt obligations, overseas relocation of white collar jobs). Just something to think about.

Of course, groups splitting over goals is not always a bad thing, if each side takes their interests and moves forward. Usually squabbles are presented in the negative light since they are painful, but a good split can lead to success for both parties.

Just think, Uncle Tupelo split and we got Son Volt AND Wilco -- two great bands for one!

The Beatles split and we got... well, OK, so it doesn't always work out better. ;-)

trains@robertjohndavis.com

> The Beatles split and we got... well, OK, so
> it doesn't always work out better. ;-)

Hey Rob --- "You can be my Yoko Ono!" ;-)

TJ


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Now I gotta brush...

> TJ


superheater@rrmail.com

That would be great to see the F3's come home to Maine in there classic B&A blue and gray. Course don't tell any one up here, even though I'm a B&A fan, that orange and blue looks nice on those F's. Don't tell anyone I said that.
-Justin Franz

qcmrs18@yahoo.com

> and the Coach was in a doctor's
> backyard in DesPlaines.

Well, the replica coach was just that. A replica built by CNW at 40th St Shops, and I think used at the Chicago Railroad Fair over 50 years ago. It and the loco and another car toured the CNW on flatcars, also. It was largely plywood and 2x4's and was not in Des Plaines, but another north suburb of Chicago. Views taken this year show the roof collapsed, and sides buckled, not much left to work with. And probably not even able to move it without it disintegrating.

Another example that almost anything left out of doors inexorably returns to nature; faster in a rain forest, slower in the desert. A noble goal might be to collect less stuff and spend the money saved on getting it under cover. Hard to do psychologically, though, with the instant gratification of owning something destined for the scrap heap.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net