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| If I had a billion
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9926 |
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| Author: | M. Nix [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | If I had a billion |
If I had a billion dollars I wouldn't fund the restoration of any locomotives, I wouldn't buy a short line to run them on, I wouldn't save a round house from demolition, but I would help preserve railroad history. I would fund the copying, indexing, and storing in multiple locations every photo, blue print, book, and paper related to railroading. I would also have measured and drawn existing structures and equipment. Given drawings, photos, money, and a will, ANYTHING can be reproduced. Preservation is only temporary, fires and natural disasters will eventually thwart our best efforts. That is not to say we shouldn't try, just pointing out the facts. Preserving photos and plans by having copies at several locations is an important facet of railway preservation. How many out there are doing this? P.S. I lied, if I had the money I would fund a few restorations, But alas I'M just a poor working stiff. Just my 5 cents M.Nix 2rivers@upstel.net |
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| Author: | Saturated Steam [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: If I had a billion *PIC* |
> If I had a billion dollars I wouldn't fund > the restoration of any locomotives, I > wouldn't buy a short line to run > them on, I wouldn't save a round house from > demolition, but I would help preserve > railroad history. I would > fund the copying, indexing, and storing in > multiple locations every photo, blue print, > book, and paper related to > railroading. I would also have measured and > drawn existing structures and equipment. > Given drawings, photos, > money, and a will, ANYTHING can be > reproduced. Preservation is only temporary, > fires and natural disasters > will eventually thwart our best efforts. > That is not to say we shouldn't try, just > pointing out the facts. Preserving photos > and plans by having copies at > several locations is an important facet of > railway preservation. How many out there are > doing this? > P.S. I lied, if I had the money I would fund > a few restorations, But alas I'M just a poor > working stiff. > Just my 5 cents > M.Nix Yea and IF a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his a** everytime he jumped. Let's not turn this into an "if I had a cazillion dollars" thread. What are the chances of becoming a millionaire anyways? Allen ![]() saturated_steam@yahoo.com |
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| Author: | M. Nix [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: If I had a billion |
Sorry, you missed the point. Its not about what if, it's about the importance of backing up the most easily destroyed items. I know of several large paper collections, and to my knowledge none of them has been micro filmed. The Lima blueprints at the California RR museum come to mind. The loss of those would be greater than the loss of any single car, loco or building. M. Nix 2rivers@upstel.net |
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| Author: | T.J. Gaffney [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Reality on preserving document collections |
I know of several large > paper collections, and to my knowledge none > of them has been micro > filmed. The Lima blueprints at the > California RR museum come to mind. The loss > of those would be greater than the loss of > any single car, loco or building. > M. Nix Sorry, this grinds me. Haven't spoken in a while, but this one gets me. While I agree with Mr. Nix above the value of these collections, I do have to ask the following: 1.) Have you once offered to help the museum in question with this preservation or transfer? 2.) Money is not all of it: IT TAKES REAL MANPOWER. Even offering to volunteer with the transfer of documents to new technology helps. 3.) Next time you donate an item or collection to a museum, are you willing to give a stipend for its long term care? Or will you simply unload yoru basement of unsorted, probably moldy and half deteriotated records, and expect them to be magically sorted and curated back to life? 4.) Will YOU pay to then have them microfilmed, which, by the way, is considered by many in museum/ archival work to be self-defeating, as microfilm is quickly falling to the wayside due to its EXTREME expense in comparison to scanning items digitally? The reality is this --- forget winning the lottery, forget the pie in the sky dreams ---- are you willing to make the personal effort to save these records AND support their long term care? Even if it doesn't benefit you? BOTTOM LINE: Are YOU willing to pay (monetarily, sweat equity, or otherwise) to preserve something if you know that 50 years from now no one may ever know that you preserved it, just that it was preserved for future generations???? TJ Port Huron Museum tjgaffney@phmuseum.org |
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| Author: | Rick [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Reality on preserving document collections |
I have here in my collection over 5,000 engineering drawings from a local industrial facility, dating from 1908 until 1979. I house them, and am in the beginning stages of constructing a room to store them in. It is my hope that someday one of the local archives can take them, but one has thousands of drawings already and the other has rooms full that are unprocessed. So for now its up to me to care for them. I plan to process the drawings, ditially scan all of the significant ones, and to the best of my ability conserve and store them. There is a company in Akron, OH that does large scans, at about $1.00 per image. Most of the drawings on the Fallen Flags website were scanned by this firm. I know that my efforts may go unnoticed by future generations, and I won't get the credit for saving them and making them available, but thats not why I do it. Actually I shun the spotlight. Just want to make sure they are preserved. rick@todengine.org |
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| Author: | T.J. Gaffney [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Reality on preserving document collections *PIC* |
Rick- Very cool. Kudos not needed I know, but richly deserved. We have a collection of blueprints that were saved by one of the former captains of the Pere Marquette #10, the last of the river ferries of the Pere Marquette, built by Manitowac Shipbuilding in 1945. She operated between Port Huron and Sarnia from 1953 - 1974, when she was depowered into a tug-barge operation, which lasted until 1994, when CSX downgraded and then abandoned its Port Huron - Saginaw line, as well as much of its Ontario trackage. The collection if a complete sets of schematics for the #10, as well as many of her earlier 1927 sister the #12, which he had taken with him when the ferry was converted to non-power in 1974. He then donated them, along with a couple of her engine room whistles, her steam guages, the PM #12's Christening flag, etc. To say they are priceless is an understatement. Eventually we hope to get them scanned into a CD format for review. Oh, and by the way --- these same blueprints were later used to create a model of the #10 in the Captain's memory, years after that donation. Pretty cool, huh? Oh yeah, overhead shot of the #10 at Port Huron circa 1953 below. TJ > I have here in my collection over 5,000 > engineering drawings from a local industrial > facility, dating from 1908 until 1979. I > house them, and am in the beginning stages > of constructing a room to store them in. It > is my hope that someday one of the local > archives can take them, but one has > thousands of drawings already and the other > has rooms full that are unprocessed. So for > now its up to me to care for them. I plan to > process the drawings, ditially scan all of > the significant ones, and to the best of my > ability conserve and store them. > There is a company in Akron, OH that does > large scans, at about $1.00 per image. Most > of the drawings on the Fallen Flags website > were scanned by this firm. > I know that my efforts may go unnoticed by > future generations, and I won't get the > credit for saving them and making them > available, but thats not why I do it. > Actually I shun the spotlight. Just want to > make sure they are preserved. Port Huron Museum [img]http://michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/imagesRRHX/Stations/C&OPortHuronBoatyard1954[TJGaffneyColl].jpg[/img] tjgaffney@phmuseum.org |
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| Author: | dave [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | plan ahead - personal archival collections |
TJ - having just been through the hell of clearing out a house of over half a century of unmitigated accumulation after a death, which included reams of old paper of many kinds, I can only encourage those of us who have built some personal archives to make some plans for their disposal and organize them for preservation after our demise. My neices will eventually inherit whatever junk I have - neither are at all interested in railroad preservation. If they piss me off, I will not clean house again, but that is another story..... Point being a decent quantity of new and copied documents could easily be dumped as trash by those who don't recognise the special value, especially given the historically accurate greasy handprints, etc on many of them. Fortunately, I can leave them to the next generation by making a bequest to a museum or to a deserving young person. Make your lists and write your codicils now. dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | dave [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | and furthermore |
I forgot to relate the tragedy of the Glover archives. Over two dozen file cabinets full of documents dating from the Reconstruction era through the '60s were unceremoniously dumped out of the second floor windows of the Laboratory and hauled to the dump. Fortunately, Dick Hillman did manage to save the majority of the remaining Locomotive specific material, but the greater story of the company itself was irrevocably lost - nobody was interested enough to save it. This was Glovers, guys. Think what might have come from Baldwin? dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Grandma Steamer [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: plan ahead - personal archival collections |
If they piss me > off, I will not clean house again, but that > is another story..... Whoa there, buddy, watch your langauge. Think twice next time before you use profanity on this board. My grandkids read these messages. Go stand in the corner, Iron Dave. You're not getting my contract work! |
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| Author: | dave [ Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | That's profane? |
Apologies Grandma - I must be hanging around too many other rough greasy old curmudgeons, didn't seem profane to me. Colloquial, yes, but pretty innocous. American colloquial, maybe British too? Australian colloquial for drunk, bt not my intended meaning. No offense meant. dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Greg Schultz [ Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Example of records storage |
> This was Glovers, guys. Think what might > have come from Baldwin? > dave Luckily most of the Baldwin records have been saved by Everette L. DeGolyer, Sr at the DeGolyer Library at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. I've spent a few hours perusing the records myself looking for information on several specific locomotives and railroad information. It's amazing how much of this collection resides on micro-film and digital storage. However, there is still a lot that has not been recorded such as photographs and such. Due to the amount of information they have fromBaldwin alone, not counting the countless other collections, this woul dbe a major undertaking. If I lived in Dallas, I would love to help digitally record this information. Anyone living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area with an interest in this may want to see if they can volunteer with the library. If anyone is doing research on a specific locomotive or railroad, this is a fantastic resource. It is open and available to the public but I suggest making an appointment and planning plenty of time as it takes them time to pull the records from storage for you. Have a list of what specific information you're searching for BEFORE arriving. If you go with the intentions of just perusing the collection, forget about it. But if you are doing research, it is well worth the time and effort, just give yourself plenty of time. It's really easy to get side tracked on other stuff you come across (believe me I know). G DeGolyer Library greg@nospamskittercreek.com |
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| Author: | Alex Huff [ Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Example of records storage |
Luckily most of the Baldwin records have been saved by Everette L. DeGolyer, Sr at the DeGolyer Library at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. (snip). I believe much of the DeGolyer Baldwin material was first saved by the Hammond, LA photographer, C. W. Witbeck. He shipped two (or three?) boxcars of material from the Baldwin plant as the archives were being dumped. My third hand recollection is that some glass negatives were included but did not survive the trip to Hammond. Alex Huff, who attended a CNW surplus auction in Boone, Iowa a number of years ago when over twenty file cabinets, were sold .... with contents, including property leases and trackage rights agreements. dsrc512@sd.value.net |
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| Author: | K.R. Bell [ Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | The Baldwin Records Story |
How DeGolyer saved the Baldwin material is only part of the story, actually. According to Matt Gray, a now-deceased BLW employee, Witbeck was restoring a Baldwin-built Louisana plantation locomotive and inquired with the company about obtaining a set of drawings for his loco. BLW officials said that would be permissible, and if he was interested, he could peruse the rest of the Baldwin engineering drawings for whatever he wanted, since the company was in the process of purging their drawing file. He made the visit to Eddystone in 1951-52, filled two boxcars with material (randomly selected, loaded nearby on an lcl siding). Whatever was left (mostly the larger A- and B-size engineering drawings) were thrown down a shute and disposed of by BLW employees in a refuse bin below. The C- and D-sized drawings were retained by the company for diesel parts replacement and reference purposes and eventually went to Wilmington and finally Malvern where Baldwin-Hamilton maintained their offices until closure in 1991. These drawings (mostly post 1941 in coverage but not exclusively) are now at the PA State Archives in Harrisburg. If only the entire Baldwin library and engineering depart records were saved, what a marvelous archive of locomotive engineering history would have survived! Much of their material, I was told, dated back to the founding of the company in the early 1830s and went forward to almost the end of production. Getting back to the Witbeck materials, he kept what was of utmost interest and the rest of the material was sold to Owen Davies Bookseller in Chicago. Everett DeGolyer learned of the material and purchased it lock, stock and barrel in the 1960s and it ended up going to Southern Methodist University in Dallas, his alma mater. The SMU material is almost exclusively from the pre-1940 era and is heavy on steam technology but the drawings are largely incomplete in terms of total chronological coverage of Baldwin's output (they have several catalogues available that index the Erecting Card and Engineering Drawings). If you are seeking a complete set of drawings for your 1920s Baldwin-built loco (or a specific loco from another era) it is either hit or miss--you may be surprised or totally disappointed. The colelction is very much like swiss cheese--lots of gaps and holes with missing material relative to Baldwin's total output. Some of Witbeck's Baldwin materials can be found at Louisiana State University. Another small collection of earlier Baldwin paint and mechanical data is housed at Stanford University and arrived there in the early 1960s; its provenance is unknown to me. Whitcomb records went to California State RR Museum in 1991, and other Baldwin subsidiary records were placed by B-H at various archives at the same time. The 18,200-item Baldwin negative collection was saved by Herbert L. Broadbelt, a mechanical engineer from Baldwin's engineering department in the mid- to late-1950s. Again, it now exists because of the random action taken by a well-intentioned individual to save history from total distruction. Some older negatives were damaged by mold in Mr. Broadbelt's basement over the years and were thrown out while others were sold off to collectors for the right price under his ownership, so it has gaps. For instance, we know that Baldwin starting taking photos of finsihed locos on Broad Street as early as 1859 (some stereocards still exist) and Baldwin copy prints from the 1860s abound in our general photo file under individual railroad companies. But the oldest image in the Baldwin negative file dates back to 1871, so the question remains: what happened to all of the earlier Baldwin negatives, say from 1859-1871? They may have resided with a contract photographer in Philadelphia and never made it into the company's files or they were in the firm's collection and were disposed of earlier; I cannot say with absolute certainty since do not know. I now manage this collection at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Archives in Strasburg. K.R. Bell > Luckily most of the Baldwin records have > been saved by Everette L. DeGolyer, Sr at > the DeGolyer Library at Southern Methodist > University in Dallas. (snip). > I believe much of the DeGolyer Baldwin > material was first saved by the Hammond, LA > photographer, C. W. Witbeck. He shipped two > (or three?) boxcars of material from the > Baldwin plant as the archives were being > dumped. My third hand recollection is that > some glass negatives were included but did > not survive the trip to Hammond. > Alex Huff, who attended a CNW surplus > auction in Boone, Iowa a number of years ago > when over twenty file cabinets, were sold > .... with contents, including property > leases and trackage rights agreements. |
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| Author: | jc boykin [ Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Baldwin Records Story |
What about the 4000 or so boxes of BLW records in the Pennsylvania State Archives? Could we have a brief rundown of these? Thanks. |
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| Author: | K.R. Bell [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Baldwin Records Story |
Your best bet would be to go to the PA State Archives website and look under MG-427 The Baldwin-Hamilton Collection. I think they have posted a scope and content note describing the collection. > What about the 4000 or so boxes of BLW > records in the Pennsylvania State Archives? > Could we have a brief rundown of these? > Thanks. |
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