Sometimes my mind wanders around, and lately the talk of replicating the PRR T1 got me to recalling a conversation with a retired Nickel Plate engineer, who recalled that the NKP was considering new steam passenger power before the road decided on the "Bluebird" Alco PAs.

The concept makes sense for the most part--NKP would have still had a lot of Van Sweringen road-Advisory Mechanical Committee influence in its decision making at the time (and the road would order what would be Lima's last steam locomotives a few years later)--but what was most interesting, at least according to this fellow, was what would have been the choice of design.

I would have thought the NKP would have considered duplicating C&O's L-2 4-6-4, which incorporated a lot of standard parts with that road's 2-8-4s (which in turn were a shared design with NKP and Pere Marquette 2-8-4s). Common parts would have included the tender, cab, trailing truck, and most of the boiler (the 4-6-4 boiler was somewhat shorter but the firebox end was identical, or at least that's what I would think from the data). Imagine my surprise when he responded that the proposed passenger engine would have been based on N&W's J-class 4-8-4! Said the management wanted a high-performance passenger engine, and that the Js had what they wanted. I commented that such a locomotive would be a good deal larger than anything else on the roster, but there was a precedent for that when the road bought its own 4-6-4s from Alco (Dunkirk) in the late 1920s.

The whole thing may have been a lot of hooey, but one never really knows. Anyway, does anybody have knowledge of whether a new steam passenger design was being considered by the Nickel Plate, and what it may have been based on?

The NKP Yahoo had a discussion on this very subject,

popped from the discussion

I would tend to agree with what was posted there from the yahoo groups. With the NKP rostering the very capable Berks on fast freights I would tend to think that a 4-8-4 along the lines of a "J" would have been a huge waste of dollars on the flat land Nickel Plate. I would think a enlarged Hudson would fit the bill better in terms of capability and operating expenses.

Did some checking on both the NKP 2-8-4s and the C&O 4-6-4s; I think a variation of the C&O engines would have worked for NKP. Although the heaviest 4-6-4s built, the original L-2 version was slightly lighter than the 2-8-4s.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/berkshire/?page=nkp

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/?page=co

A question could be, were there places the NKP's Hudsons went that the 2-8-4s didn't? If so, that could be an argument against the "Van Sweringen" 4-6-4. If not, there would have been no problems with the big Hudsons on the NKP.

An interesting irony is that this pair of 4-6-4 designs (L-2s were the original engines delivered in 1942 with Baker valve gear, L-2as were a postwar engine with Franklin Type B poppet valves), which had a lot of Lima/Alco/AMC design elements and standard parts in them, were built by Baldwin!

Perhaps this is a question which I might already know the answer, but why not just build more Berks instead of designing a whole new locomotive? The Berks would perhaps have a bit too much power for passenger service, but could serve as dual service machines. We know the Berks were fast enough...

That might have made some sense (and C&O's own Kanawhas were fitted for passenger service, and some regularly handled passenger trains in Virginia prior to the delivery of the the J3as in 1948*), but possible reasons to consider special passenger power would be (a) to keep Berkshires (and Kanawhas) in the productive freight service for which they were designed, and (b) to take advantage of the general characteristics of a passenger locomotive, which would include a four-wheel leading truck for steadier running in the higher speed ranges, and the use of larger drivers to keep machinery RPMs down, which would reduce maintenance costs to an extent.

Of course, the real answer NKP's management came up with was to buy the Bluebirds. . .which leads to other questions, such as why pick Alco PAs over, say E-units, and why order 2-8-4s after the purchase of these passenger units and the yard engines that were proving so effective on the road?

*An interesting point about the Kanawhas that were in passenger service prior to the delivery of J3as 610-614 was that they were in C&O's passenger color scheme. What the devil was that? Well, the two schemes were very similar--except that freight locomotive had rods and valve gear painted white or light grey, and passenger power had polished, bare metal rods.

That is actually a good point about just using the Berks. As we have all seen the 765 has shown that it is very capable...I'm thinking back to the New River trips. I think maybe though a bit too much power for the NKP passenger trains back in the day?

Turns out the NKP did use its 2-8-4s in passenger service, and did want other locomotives to power passenger trains.

From the late John A. Rehor's "The Nickel Plate Story," pages 271-273:



Well, they did pick Bluebirds over new steam--but it's still interesting to contemplate that NKP may have been considering new steam, and that they chose PAs over E7s. It would be fascinating to find what the officers said as they considered the options.