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| Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38063 |
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| Author: | Reading T1 2124 [ Wed May 13, 2015 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
In lieu of the days events, I was just wondering what circumstances there were that would cause a wreck of such magnitude to occur, other than simply out of human error. Also I think we have probably just found the first ACS-64 to be taken out service. What are the chances? Same section of track as the congressional Limited wreck of 1943. |
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| Author: | Alan Walker [ Wed May 13, 2015 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
We shall find out once the NTSB has completed the initial investigation and establishes the facts surrounding the incident. I understand that the curve that the wreck occurred on has a speed restriction (50 mph?). Just on the appearance of the published photographs, it appears that speed was the direct cause. The questions will probably focus on why the train entered the curve at excessive speed. It appears that the speed that the train entered the curve at exceeded the overturning speed or that the rail turned over due to the forces produced by the train (possible but unlikely). |
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| Author: | etalcos [ Wed May 13, 2015 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
It has a striking resemblance to the Southern Crescent wreck in Elma, VA in 1979. Both attributed to excess speed on a curve. ETA |
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| Author: | Overmod [ Wed May 13, 2015 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Reports I am hearing say speed in curve 106-107 mph (!) in almost the same spot as the 1943 wreck. Interestingly enough this speed was reached from a standing start (at 30th St.) less than 3.5 miles away. I suspect this topic will be moved over to 'railfanning', where it strictly belongs. But in the meantime, respect for the dead and sympathy for the injured. |
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| Author: | PaulWWoodring [ Wed May 13, 2015 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
I'm hearing from my sources that the engineer was a recent transfer to the Northeast Corridor from the West Coast. So, forgot where he was on the railroad until the last moment is a significant possibility. That would explain the last second emergency brake application - the "Oh, S*** moment". He left the police station with his attorney, so he's already "lawyered up". If you are reading this before Midnight on Wednesday, if you can, you should either watch or record the Midnight re-broadcast of The Rachel Maddow Show, and her 15 minute rant in the first half of the show called "This is Fixable". She goes through the history of recent human factor, preventable fatal passenger rail wrecks, issues with PTC, including industry objections, Amtrak funding issues and Congressional politics. It was truly amazing, and possibly the most knowledgeable mainstream media commentary on anything having to do with rail in a long time. |
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| Author: | Dick_Morris [ Wed May 13, 2015 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
The topic is probably directly relevant to this group. The news and pundits (including Maddow) are putting a lot of emphasis on the idea that if PTC had been available in that area that the accident would have been prevented. The situation is likely to make the regulators and congress even less flexible in respect to PTC for heritage steam operations. |
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| Author: | omar [ Thu May 14, 2015 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Unfortunately, sad events like this will turn our rail system into an expensive "horizontal elevator". |
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| Author: | Heavenrich [ Thu May 14, 2015 11:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Reading T1 2124 wrote: In lieu of the days events, I was just wondering what circumstances there were that would cause a wreck of such magnitude to occur, other than simply out of human error. Also I think we have probably just found the first ACS-64 to be taken out service. What are the chances? Same section of track as the congressional Limited wreck of 1943. To keep this thread historic, here's some TV coverage about the 1943 wreck that came to us via the Lancaster Chapter, NRHS see http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/0 ... ain-wreck/ caveat, I don't know how long this will be 'up' Bob H |
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| Author: | Ron Goldfeder [ Thu May 14, 2015 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Can someone let us know if the PRR had the Automatic Train Stop signaling system in this area in the past? If I understand it correctly this would have prevented the wreck if the engineer had to pass a signal at the proper speed before entering the curve. And if the PRR did have it, when was it removed or taken out of service? |
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| Author: | Alan Walker [ Thu May 14, 2015 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
ATC/ATS of the time was signal activated. It merely indicated the condition of the next signal and would stop the train unless forestalled by the engineman. It did not govern speed. This case is very similar to the NYC Gulf Curve derailment, which was related to excessive speed due to human error. |
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| Author: | wesp [ Thu May 14, 2015 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Slight topic drift. Quote: Same section of track as the Congressional Limited wreck of 1943. We had a similar situation in Washington DC between the tragic Terra Cotta wreck on the B&O in the early 1900s and the WMATA crash just a few years ago in nearly the same location just inside the DC line. Wesley |
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| Author: | CO 2666 [ Thu May 14, 2015 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Never in a million years did I ever think that a Train Orders thread would be a reference point in the New York Times. The article is: For Amtrak Engineer Brandon Bostian, Childhood Passion Became a Career Quote: On the online forums of trainorders.com, a writer who signed many of his posts as “Brandon” routinely criticized railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents. Details strongly suggest the posts were by Mr. Bostian — the subjects and locations of the posts correspond to the places he lived and the jobs he has had at Amtrak. In a cached version of a deleted topic page, other members of the site identified Mr. Bostian by name and his online handle, saying he was the conductor of the train that derailed. Quote: In a March 2011 trainorders.com discussion of a train collision, the writer laid out how technology had been in place since the 1920s to stop trains if engineers failed to obey stop signals, how technology improved in the 1950s until, by the 1980s, a pilot “positive train control” system was up and running. But, he noted, railroad companies never adopted the safety measures. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/am ... -news&_r=0 Just something interesting to read. /Andrew |
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| Author: | Bob Davis [ Thu May 14, 2015 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Southern Californians may be "flashing back" on the 1956 derailment of Santa Fe's two RDC units at Redondo Jct. (a few miles south of Los Angeles Union Station). This disaster was also attributed to excessive speed on a curve. The "preservation angle" of the story is that one of the RDCs still exists, and is preserved by the Pacific Railroad Society. |
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| Author: | J3a-614 [ Fri May 15, 2015 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
PaulWWoodring wrote: I'm hearing from my sources that the engineer was a recent transfer to the Northeast Corridor from the West Coast. So, forgot where he was on the railroad until the last moment is a significant possibility. That would explain the last second emergency brake application - the "Oh, S*** moment". He left the police station with his attorney, so he's already "lawyered up". If you are reading this before Midnight on Wednesday, if you can, you should either watch or record the Midnight re-broadcast of The Rachel Maddow Show, and her 15 minute rant in the first half of the show called "This is Fixable". She goes through the history of recent human factor, preventable fatal passenger rail wrecks, issues with PTC, including industry objections, Amtrak funding issues and Congressional politics. It was truly amazing, and possibly the most knowledgeable mainstream media commentary on anything having to do with rail in a long time. I haven't seen the Maddow segment, but it's apparently getting some attention from other people: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show ... _fb_maddow [Edited] It also looks like MSNBC has archived the segment: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc ... 5160003931 |
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| Author: | J3a-614 [ Fri May 15, 2015 1:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Philadelphia/ Port Richmond Wreck |
Here's a question for the signal people here: The Pennsylvania Railroad had a coded signal system with cab signals and automatic train stop that dated back to at least the 1930s. It is still used, in a modernized form, on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. It's a mature technology with no unpleasant surprises. Why don't we just reinstall all that stuff, and expand it? Why do we have to reinvent the wheel, relying on computers and wireless communications that are potentially disruptable? Is there a cost problem, one greater than the modern PTC solution? |
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