Does anyone have any literature or recent actual experience with running a 2-8-0 steam engine in 'reverse'.

Specifically, what is a safe reverse speed on good quality track (50 mph limit)?

Are there any operations that run a 2-8-0 in reverse for long distances?

Thanks


mcvittie@sageserve.com

How big is your engine? Does the tender obstruct your view? No matter how good your track is, I wouldn't get much over 10mph, 15 could get exciting.Back in the old days, shortlines that didn't have turning facilities always bought little prairies so they could go back with the same ease as forward.

The Valley, I seem to recall, used to run their engines in reverse, as does the Strasburg. Dave, Linn??

lorija799@aol.com

Here at the Heber Valley Railroad, we run our 2-8-0's tender-first for up to 16 miles because of no turning facilities (yet) at Vivian Park. We have plans to put in a turntable, but like everything else, it costs $. We have two turntable bridges, and are just waiting for funds to install them. One could do a cost analysis on the differences between running 2-8-0's backwards for half of their lives and the increased wear on the #4 driver axle flanges (because of no trailing axle) -vs- the cost of installing turntables. Also, there is the safety concern of reduced visibility while shoving a tender.
The references we have consulted on tender-first running speeds are steam-era rulebooks and timetables. Union Pacific limited backwards running to 35 mph, the Rio Grande limited backwards running to 15 mph (narrow gauge). Because of the condition of our branchline track and due to the numerous curves, we have gone towards the conservative side and use 15 mph as our max backward speed, even though we run a UP engine.
A unique and interesting operating practice for the Tooele Valley RR was to run their trains tender-first downhill, and shoving cars ahead uphill, so the locomotive was always facing upgrade on the downhill side of the train. This was due to the fact that 5 miles of the RR went down the middle of the street through town, and the city insisted on the practice to guard against runaways after a break-in-two.
The Sierra RR (Railtown 1897) also does extensive backward running, you could ask them about their practices as well.

Many Tourist lines operate steam locomotives in reverse for several miles on every trip since many of these railroads lack the facilities to turn an engine at both ends of the line. Strasburg and the New Hope & Ivyland are two railroad operating steam locomtives in this fashion.

I'm certainly no expert in the operation of a 2-8-0, but I believe that a general rule of thumb is that engineers should be able to stop the engine in half the range of their vision (whether running forward or in reverse). The exact speed this equates to depends on a lot of operating conditions. Mechanically, I don't believe there is any reason a steam locomotive can't go as fast forward as it can in reverse.

Jeff

> Does anyone have any literature or recent
> actual experience with running a 2-8-0 steam
> engine in 'reverse'.

> Specifically, what is a safe reverse speed
> on good quality track (50 mph limit)?

> Are there any operations that run a 2-8-0 in
> reverse for long distances?

> Thanks


smith@drexel.edu

The Union Pacific reference was for 25 mph max reverse speed, not 35 mph. Slip of the digit!

At Georgetown Loop reverse as much as forward, but reverse is downhill and hopefully doesn't get faster than about 10-12 MPH. More makes me nervous as the track stops short on the grade to Georgetown.

Virginia and Truckee runs one way in reverse also, and about as fast as forward - say tops 15 MPH.

Spencer shops runs backwards one way, forward on another track, and backs again to start over. Speeds are kept restricted.

To a certain extent, the tender acts as a truck if there isn't a lot of slack in the drawbar and chafing iron.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Blue Mountain and Reading used to run 4-6-2 #425 and 4-8-4 2102 upwards of 25 and rumored to sometimes hit as much as 50 (!) on the Temple to Hamburg run, and the engines were never turned.

I remember the ride being significantly faster than Strasburg, and once paced 2102 (facing foreward) upwards of 40 mph at Glen Gery, according to the family Taurus.


mrwowak@yahoo.com

Our planned trip is roughly 45 miles, and there is some arguement over how fast we can back-up.

The view from the cab (looking backward) is not as good, but not horrible.

My understanding is that it can't go as fast in reverse because it doesn't have the leading (or trailing) pony truck when going backwards.

> Many Tourist lines operate steam locomotives
> in reverse for several miles on every trip
> since many of these railroads lack the
> facilities to turn an engine at both ends of
> the line. Strasburg and the New Hope &
> Ivyland are two railroad operating steam
> locomtives in this fashion.

> I'm certainly no expert in the operation of
> a 2-8-0, but I believe that a general rule
> of thumb is that engineers should be able to
> stop the engine in half the range of their
> vision (whether running forward or in
> reverse). The exact speed this equates to
> depends on a lot of operating conditions.
> Mechanically, I don't believe there is any
> reason a steam locomotive can't go as fast
> forward as it can in reverse.

> Jeff


mcvittie@sageserve.com

I remember a few years back ('94 or '95?), Doyle ran the 4449 down the BNSF (former Oregon Electric) for the Willamette and Pacific. They came as far south as Brooks where there is a siding. Doyle ran around the train, hooked on, and was in reverse back to the Portland area. I suppose speed issues are completely different with a trailing truck, though. It was great to watch Doyle at work, seated facing forward looking at a rear-view mirror.



shawsinoly@aol.com

This brings to mind another stupid question by a novice. Since the engineer would be on the "wrong side" of the cab for directional running, I assume certain warning posts and signals (like whistling posts) would be on the fireman's side.
What additional issues would this raise?



shawsinoly@aol.com

A steam engine (like a stationary engine) runs just as well forwards as backwards. The main issues are visibility and wear/risk of derailing without a trailing truck.

My understanding was the German "Kriegslok" (50 and 52 class) 2-10-0s could run as well backwards as forwards. They had a tender with a narrow top; I assume the wear and riding characteristics running backward were good too; although I don't know why.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Mechanically, I don't believe there is any
> reason a steam locomotive can't go as fast
> forward as it can in reverse.

> Jeff


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

On a friction bearing locomotive, the grease grooves may be cut to only allow lubrication in one direction. At TVRM, we must make a 48 mile reverse movement when returning on a Georgia excursion (soon to end when the turntable is installed in Summerville). We limit the back up speed to 15 mph for two reasons: 1) lack a trailing truck to guide the locomotive, and 2) lubrication concerns due to previously mentioned grease groove issue.

The real headache about the grease grooves is that the only way to find out is to remove the wheels.

TVRM Shop Updates
aw90h@cs.com

From the videos I have seen, many of the Cuban sugar lines (in at least 3 of the 4 gauges) run 2-8-0s backwards in regular service out to the cane reload sites. Backup speeds, look to be in the 15-25 mph range that other have recommended. Distances in some cases are in excess of 20 miles.

Glenn

christenseng@altavista.com

All this discussion brings to mind the ultimate case of backwards running- the Great Locomotive Chase. Confederates manning the Texas (a 4-4-0 operating tender first) chased Union spies running the General (another 4-4-0 running engine first) for many miles (50?) at relatively high speed on marginal trackage. Not that you'd want to duplicate anything like these "war emergency" conditions, but it does give some idea of how far it's possible to push an engine with no trailing truck.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom

> Does anyone have any literature or recent
> actual experience with running a 2-8-0 steam
> engine in 'reverse'.

> Specifically, what is a safe reverse speed
> on good quality track (50 mph limit)?

> Are there any operations that run a 2-8-0 in
> reverse for long distances?

> Thanks


the Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com

While at the Birmingham Ry museum in the UK over the summer I had the chance to talk to one of the firemen who crews on the "Shakespeare Express" train which uses a Hall class 4-6-0. There are no turning facilities on the mainline where they run. While he said they regularly hit 75-80 mph while going forwards, they are limited to 45mph going in reverse. Of course, this was on mainline track, so on a branch line conditons are different. But I've ridden pleny of branch line tourist railroads that run engines lacking trailing trucks backwards at up to around 25mph.

jmonty@vt.edu