I accept the invitation to participate in a public debate on the subject of outsourceing the operation of SNHS, subject to the following short list of qualifications;

1. "superheater" dumps his alias and becomes a real person so we can know who the principals in this are.

As I said, I will gladly forward “personal details”, once a venue is fixed. When you have a booking complete, I will of course confirm the details with the facility and as soon as that is done, down goes the pseudonym. I will post a bio/resume’ here for all to see within 24 hours of booking for a mutually acceptable date. It would be useful to agree on a mutually acceptable date first. Since disclosure means that I’m done sharpening my quill here, and amounts to “pseudonym suicide”, the disclosure comes after the booking. In fact, you can scan the agreement as a jpeg and post it here, since the new RYPN software allows direct posting of images.

2. the debate will only go forward if the then Superintendent of SNHS and the Mayor of the city of Scranton, agree to be participants.

Feel free to invite both, however:

The mayor of Scranton has no ability to affect the operation of Steamtown. It is a federal facility. I have no objection to mayoral participation, but the question is binary and quite frankly, I don’t think hizzoner is going to provide anything other than a polite declination to a kerfuffel between two hyper-opinionated individuals, neither of whom reside in Scranton.

As for the Superintendent, a kerfuffel between two hyper-opinionated railfans is also rather below his pay-grade. I also think the Superintendent will politely decline.

The theater is used for interpretive purposes, and not for public policy debates.

All statements are open to interpretation. I interpret this thread and the debate as the following:

Hello. My name is Ross Rowland and I would like to rent your facility for a sprited debate with a guy on a web site who goes under the handle of Superheater. Now this could be anybody real or imaginary, but he swears he will drop his nickname and give us his bio and real credentials if I book this venue.

Venue owner: Really? No problem. Here are our guidelines. Read and sign at the bottom and drop your check on the table.

All of you out there that would lay a check on the table, raise your hands. Now write those checks out and send them to me at GPO, Sewell, NJ, 08080.

Now since this discussion has been going on for so long I forget what it is really about. But I can say that I would never hold a conversation or even think about having a debate with a phantom who could at the stroke of a key disappear into the night never to be heard of or from again. So drop the handle and identify yourself. What's the big secret to your identity? Are you some big official that shouldn't be posting to any website, or are you in Witsec (the federal witness protection program)? Don't get me wrong. I am not sidng with Ross Rowland, I am just questioning the real reason behind the anonymity. (Wish they has spell check here.) Oh, and before you ask, I am Mr. Ed and have been Mr. Ed for the better part of my life. It is not a handle, it is my name. I can be found at the Pemberton Township Historic Trust where I am a member, volunteer and trustee. If I am not there, the good folks there can get you in touch with me.

Later!
Mr. Ed

Hey Mr. Ed, how's Wilbur? I 'm sorry I just couldn't resit. lol

I agree with what your saying about this Supperheater guy. I go as Schuylkill Valley is because I live in the Schuylkill Valley of PA. But I always
Sign off as Len or Leonard. that is my real name and I'm not a shame of it eirther.

Leonard F. Shaner, Jr.
Journey Back In Time Productions Since 1994

I agree with Mr Ed on this one. (By the way Ed, love your TV show...)

If you believe in what you're saying, then you really shouldn't have any issue signing your name to it. If you aren't supposed to be saying what you're saying, for whatever reason that may be, then I guess maybe you should stop posting.

One of the biggest problems with the internet is the ability for folks to hide behind a curtain of presumed anonominity, and say things they're not willing to say in person. As with Ed, I'm not taking sides either, but I you have to admit that love him or hate him, Ross certainly makes no secret of his identity. I feel that opinions and statements that are signed carry a lot more weight than ones that nobody will claim.

I don't care for hiding behind a pseudonym, but I've had it spelled out to me in very specific terms why SOME folks can't post on a forum like this, and in this very specific case, even more so.

People in "public service"--specifically, those whose paychecks are paid by a government--answer to an entirely different set of rules than the "rest of us" when it comes to public commentary. I've personally talked to people who openly spouted their opinions online while working for a public institution--and gotten fired or demoted for it. I know of at least two others who USED to post on this board regularly, and don't anymore specifically because (as they told me) they were "called on the carpet" for their postings, IN SPITE OF numerous "this is my position, and does not reflect the position of (the agency with which I work)" disclaimers.

This is hardly distinct to government. You are often susceptible to the same syndrome if, for example, you work for a research lab and pontificate online about your field of study (two friends of mine--semiconductor research and electric vehicle research), or, say, you work for a big railroad and spout online about railroad operations. In a sense, I'm floored, flattered, and grateful that not only Linn Moedinger, but his company's employees, are granted what appears to be relatively free access to this forum and others. I don't realistically expect this of most successful private corporations.

Given the atmosphere online, I sincerely cannot expect any chance of any actual representation by the likes of Steamtown or the NPS on ANY online forum, let alone this one. Heck, I can't even anticipate any real postings from the likes of the Grand Canyon RR. As I type this literally, there's a news report about Sarah Palin's e-mail accounts being hacked on the TV news. One of my Internet legal manuals explicitly says, "Do not post anything online under some name that can be traced to you that you wouldn't be comfortable with having plastered on a 40-foot billboard over an Interstate highway."

Correct... Now consider the fact that unless you've gone to extreme measures, and maybe even not then, your online identity can most likely be traced back to you.

I totally understand that there are some people who cannot, for various reasons, post here. I'm under a few NDA's myself. Wanna know about how xxx has applied to xxx to xxxx xxxx. Yeah, well, folks would be interested, but sorry, no comment.

I understand the "deep throat" approach, and why it's sometimes used. However, I still feel that you lose a lot of credibility when going that route.

The argument about the use of "screen names" comes up at regular interval on this forum. In the case of some name choices it is obvious that a screen name is being used. However, anybody can register on this forum under a very proper sounding name that is not their own, and nobody is going to know it is not their real name. Consequently the entire issue gets to be pretty much a waste of time.

PC

By the way, let's ask another question... Let's assume that blowingsmoke gives us his full name, rank and serial number, and it's independently verified by two nuns and a CPA. Let's further assume that Ross says "OK, now that I know who you are, you're on!" and rents the theater at Foamtown (They do rent the place out for events, right? If not, why not, it's a way of raising revenue?)

So we have this big confab between Ross and Mr. X. Let's assume he's actually somebody with a position of authority in Steamtown, rather than just a foamer. Heck, let's say he's in charge of the whole place, just for grins.

Now, we have the debate... People from around the world show up, it's broadcast live on the web, whatever. Ross tells his point of view, and Mr X replies in kind. THEN WHAT? What possible outcome could there be?

Would Ross suddenly say "OK, well now that you've explained it, you're right, this place is great! I retract my previous statements..."

Would SteamedUp see the light and say "You know, Ross is right... This place should be operated by private enterprise. We're wasting tons of money here, let's have him run the place instead!"

Neither one is very likely is it? Even if Ross did convince them to consider a new approach, then what? How would they make the changes? What would it take to do something different. Aren't we talking about turning a battleship here?

A friend of mine once said of a certain public transit agency "Hell, it would take them a week to vote to evacuate the building if the place was on fire!"

That's how government moves. I strongly suspect that this is no different. Either one could have the most persausive argument in the world and nothing would change. Ross could bring a business plan, and 10 investors with notes of credit from their banks and it wouldn't do any good.

This whole cat herding exercise would be jolly good sport to watch, but in the end it would probably accomplish nothing. It would be just like the political debates, everyone would walk out saying "We soundly defeated the opposition" and their believers would say "Hear! Hear!" while nothing at all was actually done.

Yep, the only one who would benefit from this would be the guy renting the meeting space, and maybe a couple local bars. Anyone care to explain to me how it could be otherwise?

Seems to me that I made a rather straight forward acceptance of Mr. superheaters challenge. To reiterate;

1. Superheater-you come out of the alias closet, and

2. You get a committment from the Scranton Mayor and SNHS Super and I'll do the rest.

As the City of Scranton would benefit greatly if I'm right that a private sector D/O would dramatically increase attendance then there's ample legitimate reason for him to be an active participant.

As part of the discussion needs to be an examination of how the current $5 million plus in taxpayer monies is now spent and how half that amount could be allocated differently if the facility was operated by a D/O, having the Superintendant participate is important.

Superheater, as an active local Scranton participant you are in a much better position to get these 2 men to participate than I am, and if you are sincere in posting your challenge it should be a small price to pay??

PLEASE-either agree to these 2 conditions or say you won't and the subject will be closed. Remember you're the one who issued the challenge.

Ross Rowland

I am just amazed this topic is still around. What exactly does it have to do with railway preservation? What could it solve if a debate happened? I doubt it will since we don't know who Superheater is and I doubt Ross' terms will be met with the Mayor and Super of Steamtown signing on. I have to be honest and say all I can see is a pissing match challenge.

Casey Q.

As for the use of pseudonyms (originally given 3/22/06)

1.) There are those of us who have professional responsibilities that demand that we retain our independence. This may be difficult to fathom for some but in some walks of life-notoriety-good or bad is not a good thing. I see no reason to imperil my occupation or profession to satisfy the unreasonable demands of people who have an axe to grind on an internet chatboard. Actually, I suspect that this is merely a ploy to silence critics.

2.) Erik's point about enforceability. If I called myself "Richard York" you'd think nothing of the name-unless you happened to realized I had appropriated the name of the first "Darren" on the Bewitched TV series.

3.) I let my words speak for me-my legal name is unimportant. My identity here is consistent. I respond to all private email. If I trust you, I reveal my identity.

4.) The internet is a haven for various identity predators.

5.) Employers are now screening prospective employees by "googling" their names. If you plan on seeking employment in the future, I suggest you adopt a pseudonym.

6.) If you feel this is disingenuous, fine. I feel it is disingenuous to not disclose any conflicts of interest arising from previous relations with various entities, but that is similarly unenforceable.

As for the other objections:

Lets assume for a minute I did "vanish". Then I might as get a tattoo that said coward across my face. There's enough people here that know me that the prospect of social opprobrium will ensure I ante up.

With regard to the rental of the property, the participants in a debate are unimportant. What's important is the topic, the sponsor and the money. If one of the participants is notable enough to be cited as an expert in the newsaper, the facility can be referred to his or her record. The High Iron Forum on Privatizing Steamtown should provide enough insight into the debate on a public policy matter.

Mr. Rowland has set some interesting conditions to the "debate." However, while on the face, they may seem reasonable, trying to get the managment from Steamtown, the mayor, a venue at the park itself, and for Mr. Superheater to drop his pseudonym are probably enough to keep this debate on RYPN, and not in real life.

Even if all of this could happen, and the debte did take place, I doubt much would change. While it's tempting to think that such a debate would lead to a grand revelation that the emperor has no clothes, the sides of this issue are pretty much dug in, and everyone else is apathetic.

In the end, I've learned that trying to aruge with Mr. Rowland is like trying to argue with the crazy man that is on the street corner fortelling the near end of the world, after a while, people passing by won't be able to tell the difference between you and the crazy man.

Seems to me that I made a rather straight forward acceptance of Mr. superheaters challenge.

No, you added extraneous conditions. YOU made YOUR acceptance specifically conditioned on the inclusion of the Mayor of Scranton and the Superintendent. You don't honestly think that red herrings fly do you? While I have no objection to their appearance, but for reasons given, its judgment tells me they would decline, if they answered at all. In addition, it would make scheduling far more difficult. However, if YOUR powers of persuasion to be sufficient, then they are better than mine, so by all means, persuade them to come. I'm afraid I would merely insult them.

When it comes right down to it, its just you and me and two polar opposite positions. The salesman facing the auditor, either you're in or you're out.

and for Mr. Superheater to drop his pseudonym are probably enough to keep this debate on RYPN, and not in real life.

That's under my control. As soon as we get an agreed upon time, place, format and I confirm the venue with the host: My rather uninteresting resume/bio goes up in 24 hours.

No, what's important is what it would accomplish. Do you really think anything constructive would come of said debate, if it was to happen? What would the outcome be, and what would the final result be.

I'll say it again, take the political debates as an example. Do they convince anyone of anything? Do any changes result from them? Do any real questions get answered?

Sure, Debate Team is fun, but what do you get for the effort? Will there be anything more productive than strutting around and see who can crow the loudest?