Hi evryone,

After hereing about VMV closing and trying to dream up a way to buy the company, I stumbled on an idea that could work for the railroad preservation community.

My idea revolves around the rr preservation community at large starting a trust fund whereby we all make a yearly contribution to it. This fund is administered by an organization and the money would be available to organizations through grants.

We could start a "National Trust for Rail Preservation." If 500,000 railfans donated $100 once a year for a while, we could raise $50 million a year, to be used for restoration projects that need to be completed and other stuff. Of course the program would have to be administered fairly, so everyone would get a share, but these details could be worked out for the benefit of all.

In the history of the preservation movement, many national organizations have been started by one person wanting to save something. I don't mean railroad museums, I mean other organizations. I can look them up if anyone wants me to. We need something like this, so we don't have to worry about where the money comes from.

Anyway, I jsut thought I'd throw it out there and see what happens. I hope this sparks a good discussion with a lot of positive comments.

Stuart

Help save the 87
gnufe@apex.net

Even better would be to keep the base fund intact and invested and disperse the profits and have a perpetual fund for continued preservation. Then have " Societies" present proposals for grants to what ever cause. So at your 50mil example, even at 5 % ga ins you 2.5 mil to be dispersed the following year and enough avialable on hand and ready to have one or more projects ( dependent on total costs of all projects accesssed) fully funded and finished every year. Picking a wide variety of worthy or immedi atly endangered pieces. ( Stations , freight cars , roundhouses, anything railroad related, etc..)

The down side toall this is the administration of the fund and being able to satify the donors that the monies are being dispersed to worthy goal obtainab le projects and qulified investment advice. Some people would feel their money should go to the project they are most interested in a common problem at R.R. Museums. Say a station in Texas needs help, but when it goes to a snow plow restoration in Wisconsin, people get discouraged and don't recontribute. Setting up the criteria for choosing the projects fairly would be cructial.

And the biggest hurdle would be to get enough people to contribute at the time of start up to make it effective sooner than l ater. To be able to convince people of the huge possibilities and open them up to it would be great. Just Imagine being able to say you , you and you.There is one station saved one 1900's box car restored and a passenger car put back into use. And next y ear let's rebuild this locomotive for operation and actually see it done. It would be nice to see happen and I have thought of it many times before,and if you look at it 100.00 is less than $ 2.00 a week , just skip lunch and put the money away. Consider it a R.R. Preservation diet.

Rich A Youngı

Don't they call these things foundations, and aren't there foundations already that donate to rail preservation causes?

Rail preservationists already contribute, but we do in the way of giving to our local train club or museum or NRHS chapter. How do you get people to choose to give their money to a fund that someday "might" result in a grant to the hometown group, instead of donating that cash directly to the hometown group, where the results may be more immediate.

The Tod Engine
todengine@woh.rr.com

> Don't they call these things foundations,
> and aren't there foundations already that
> donate to rail preservation causes?

> Rail preservationists already contribute,
> but we do in the way of giving to our local
> train club or museum or NRHS chapter. How do
> you get people to choose to give their money
> to a fund that someday "might"
> result in a grant to the hometown group,
> instead of donating that cash directly to
> the hometown group, where the results may be
> more immediate.

An idea we've been discussing is to create a local fund for our road, with local businesses donating to it as an annual thing. They could use it a tax deduction, and we could let the fund build to use an an endowment. That way they could see where the funds are going, and know that they would be used for things they could see and touch, and that it may be helping local folks.

Since SVRy is an all volunteer, non-profit organization, the local businesses would be assured the money is all being used locally and no admin salaries are coming out of it. And we could show them how it is invested for the future.

Personally, I would rather invest locally, than know that my funds help restore a 4-8-4 on the East Coast, that I will never get to see or ride in for example. And it's not that we have lots of $$ locally, cause we simply don't. Also, it's not that I'm oppose to restoring stuff on the East Coast either.

dan

svry@attbi.com

Rick

Thats correct and there lies the downfall of the entire idea. It's hard to ask someone to contribute to a fund that may never serve their specific interest or group. The same problem happens on a smaller scale at museums with diverse objects of which different members want to work on. You have a case of many projects all started and the funds to complete none of them.

The up side to all this is the greater good of all railroad presservation and knowing that year after year the money you contributed initially is still working and preserving things and projects are actually completed instead of dragging out waiting for funding.

Now think, if people made it happened 2 or 3 years in a row.
Not to sound like Sally Struthers or anything but for only 27 cents a day you to can save a piece of railroad heritage. For the cost less than a cup of coffee you can help preserve a piece of history. Sign me up , I think I just sold myself on it. Maybe we can get Betty White to do the TV spots for it ,even better Wilfread Brimley.

Rich YoungÄ

Yes, the idea does have it's ups and downs.

Most all of us contribute to our respective groups in one way or another, wether it's through donations, volunteer hours, ridership, etc.. But if you look at it, obviously this hasn't been enough. TEA-21 has been a blessing to many groups, but it doesn't benefit all of them. Foundation is a word that could be used to label something like this. As for administration, form a council that decides where the money goes and use boards such as this and fliers etc... to show where the money goes.

Doesn't the Britsh government fund rail preservation? If so, then why don't we have something like that. Our taxes pay for everything else, but if we did something like this, we would know that it was going for a worthy cause.

I think it would work, but it takes more than just me to make it happen.

Thanks for the input,

Stuart

Help save the 87
gnufe@apex.net

> Doesn't the Britsh government fund rail
> preservation? If so, then why don't we have
> something like that. Our taxes pay for
> everything else, but if we did something
> like this, we would know that it was going
> for a worthy cause.

No it doesn't, not any more than the National Railway Museum, or unless you call The Royal Train "preservation". All those projects you see are as much private projects as, say, Strasburg or the Grand Canyon RR. True, there was a one-time grant process to mark the millennium, which coughed up lottery proceeds in an application process. Not very dissimilar to our ISTEA and TEA-21 pork-barrel trough--I mean, grants.

On that note, I should point out that the British proposal to rebuild an A1 Pacific was funded largely with the promise of "For the price of a pint [of beer] a week!" to get covenanteurs to pledge finances to the project.

LNER4472@bcpl.net

Another aspect of this idea that I wonder about, is the actual number of hardcore "rail preservationists" or whatever you want to call them.

The number 500,000 was put forward, and that may be in the ballpark, but has anyone seen any real numbers that can be backed-up in some way?

In this little Internet world it often seems like the numbers are large, but in reality the number of posters is probably only in the hundreds, even when you consider all the various discussion forums.

When it comes to the people that actually do the hands-on work, it is sometimes amazing what a small network of people it really is.

How do we come up with valid numbers? Museum questionaires or attendance? Magazine circulation?

Hi,

I just wanted to clarify something.

This idea doesn't advocate giving up a persons favorite group to throw money in a hat.

I was thinking more towards long term funding for all groups in some form or another. We may not think like this, but each museum and individual is part of the "Rail Preservation Movement" which started with the first building, piece of rolling stock, or locomotive that was saved. How we choose to shape the movement depends on what we do now, but we can't just look toward next week or this summer. What happens next year? or 5 years from now when your favorite peice of equipment needs restoration again?

Oh, and 500,000 was just off the top of my head. I don't know a figure, but it would be interesting to find out and yes it is amazing how much so few in the movement manage to get done, but we each play a part.

Anyway, this has been enlightening and I look forward to reading more comments.

Thanks,

Stuart

Help save the 87
gnufe@apex.net

> Yes, the idea does have it's ups and downs.

I don't want to focus on the downs, but two major assumptions have flaws. The most common mistake made in fundraising is x$$ times xdonors = an attainable goal. In actual fundraising, professionals will tell you that you can acheive 10 times your largest single gift annually. That is if someone gives $10,000 then you can expect to raise $100,000 provided general fundraising practices are employed. Many years of experience has borne these numbers out. In fact, with minor variations, I have found this "law" to be true.
Secondly, can you find 500,000 contributors when in the past even 1/2 of that number willing to shell out a lesser subscription fee would have kept L & RP rolling off the presses. I don't know the L & RP green sheet numbers, but I doubt they approached your numbers. Conservatively, you may get 10,000 interested parties to donate. Their donations probably would average $50 or more likely less.

I favor a more localized fundraising effort where personal relationship and knowledge of the receiving organization serve to enhance donations. Keep it simple (less organizational layers between the donors and the fund users), seems best and the net total raised locally by the aggregate of all of our efforts should far outstrip any centralized foundational effort.

A great read on fundraising is, "Fundraising: Hands-On Tactics for Non-Profit Groups" by L. Peter Edles (Dewey: 658.152 EDL)

wyld@sbcglobal.net

This whole idea sounds very much like what Mark Smith, editor & publisher of L&RP, put forward to the preservation community back in 1988. At that time he proposed a "Railway Preservation Trust" to become a major fund raising and fund disbursing enity. Mark was hoping to get funding from the larger population and not from the smaller community that currently supports railway preservation. Also he invisioned the "Trust" become involved in outreach programs into the larger population in support of railway preservation. Noble ideas.

While some organizations supported the concept and attempts were made to organize it, it failed for lack of overall support.

Brian Norden
member ARM board of directors

bnorden49@earthlink.net

One thing that the British have that does not exist in the USA is the National Heritage Lottery.
It is funding several distinct areas. One of which is historic preservation. It has funded buildings, ships, trains and some other kinds of preservation.

Quite a committee structure, with attendant paperwork. But it does hand out millions of pounds each year. and there is nothing like it in the US.

ted_miles@NPS.gov

Hi Alexander,

> I wonder (what)
> is the actual number of hardcore
> "rail preservationists" ...
> The number 500,000 was put forward.

If you are talking about the total population of people who actively participate in or financially contribute to the support of railway preservation efforts in the US. (Please Note: Per your question I'm not including guests/riders who also support railway preservation efforts by visiting - that number would be much higher.) I strongly suspect we are talking more like 50,000 people. And there is a distinct possibility that even that number is exaggerated.

> Has anyone seen
> any real numbers that can be backed-up in
> some way?

One possible yardstick could be the average monthly distribution of the old L&RP magazine, increased by some generally acceptable "fudge factor" to account for demographic changes since the cessation of publication. If you feel that number is unnecessarily restrictive an alternative measure could be the average monthly distribution of a publication like TRAINS or RR/Railfan.

I'm no expert in the matter, these are just my two cents and worth what you paid for 'em.

Best Regards,
Glenn

christenseng@altavista.com

> Hi Alexander,

> If you are talking about the total
> population of people who actively
> participate in or financially contribute to
> the support of railway preservation efforts
> in the US. (Please Note: Per your question
> I'm not including guests/riders who also
> support railway preservation efforts by
> visiting - that number would be much
> higher.) I strongly suspect we are talking
> more like 50,000 people. And there is a
> distinct possibility that even that number
> is exaggerated.

> One possible yardstick could be the average
> monthly distribution of the old L&RP
> magazine, increased by some generally
> acceptable "fudge factor" to
> account for demographic changes since the
> cessation of publication. If you feel that
> number is unnecessarily restrictive an
> alternative measure could be the average
> monthly distribution of a publication like
> TRAINS or RR/Railfan.

> I'm no expert in the matter, these are just
> my two cents and worth what you paid for
> 'em.

> Best Regards,
> Glenn

I believe the average circulation of 'Trains' is in the 130,000 to 150,000 range. I'm fairly certain that the modeling hobby is significantly larger, but very distinct from those of us primarily interested in prototype railroading. In other words, not a very large pool of potential contributors.


pww57@hotmail.com

> Secondly, can you find 500,000 contributors
> when in the past even 1/2 of that number
> willing to shell out a lesser subscription
> fee would have kept L & RP rolling off
> the presses. I don't know the L & RP
> green sheet numbers, but I doubt they
> approached your numbers.

Agree. L&RP never had anywhere near enough circulation to even survive.

And there are nowhere near 500,000 railfans or people interested in railroads. NRHS membership has been static in the 18,000 range for many years now, in spite of membership campaigns, etc. And it's by far the largest of all the RR-related groups out there.

Thus, a Railfair draws about 180,000 people over 10 days, while something like the Tall Ships draw a million in one day. And some of the larger air shows, like Oshkosh, draw crowds that dwarf all railroad events and venues combined.