Here's pics (and optional discussion) from Trainorders showing that 1361's boiler is, as of March 4, still at Steamtown. A poster in another thread says he's visted the Altoona museum this month and saw 1361's cab and drivers there.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 10,2139776

Yes, the 1361 subject has certainly been examined in depth enough to provide anyone interested plenty of past threads to mine.

C&O 614 is in long term storage in Port Clinton,Pa. and will remain so until an opportunity developes wherein the locomotive can be part of a project that justifies the substantial investment needed to return her to active duty!!

Ross Rowland

This bothers me a great deal. Discussion of the K4s, at least as far as what to do with her, shouldn't be a taboo.

Man, this should be inscribed on the keyboards of all those people that have trigger fingers to cry "foul" anytime somebody wants to discuss anything that might twist the panties of the resident hypersensitives here.

I know some folks believe stopped taking an interest in history once that overly sanitized, feel-good, PC-BS pablum that passes for public education the past 3 or so decades is over (and perhaps because of it), but read the accounts of the founding-the founding fathers were strongly-opinionated and worked to advance their ideas.

Now on to specifics: I believe what used to be the Public Protection and Recreation Comptrollers Office-a part of the Commonwealth of PA's Office of the Budget performed a performance audit on the K-4 project. That office had a group dedicated to auditing Redevelopment Assistance Capital Program (RACP) which,if memory serves me funded a significant portion of the K-4 effort. Some might also be aware this program, often used to get OPM to legislator's favorite projects is referred to as WAM (walking around money).

http://councilfor.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10902

Now, there's been a massive reorganization to consolidate what used to be six separate Comptroller's Offices into one, and unlike the Auditor General, the CO's have never been good at making their audit reports readily accessible to the public-perhaps because the AG is elected and often seeking the Governor's office, (and this year Mr. Wagner is adhering to the tradition) while the office of the Budget is ultimately headed by the Secretary of the Budget, generally a career bureaucrat type rather than a seeker of elected office.

Nonetheless, I think the appropriate inquiry might get this report. There was a reporter @ the Altoona Mirror (Bill something?) who was following the K-4.

I'd love to get my mitts on that report. It would be real interesting to see what the audit staff determined, especially since I'm pretty sure that Steam Locomotives are a pretty unusual thing for auditors.

A newly signed up (who writes in a similar style as some other newly signed up posters) person posts about a hot button. Something smells fishy here. I wonder why it did not start out "hi folks... I'm retired from NS and Conrail and I was wondering about this engine called a K-4?" or "I'm the new restroom expert at Steamtown and was wondering about this engine that was worked on up here". Don't waste your key strokes. Moderators should be checking out the IP address.

Still, a valid question begs an answer - what's going on NOW?

This in light of Strasburg's seemingly obvious solution and just in general. Is someone playing a leading role in the K-4's future currently, or is it simply "shelved" for the time being (which puts her at risk of lost parts like Steamtown's #565). Incidentally, I read a comment by a poster on Railfan.net stating that B&M #3713 will need a new firebox due to a "clerical error" made "in 1934". Can't verify the validity of that comment (and now curious), but if true, it makes you wonder why work would proceed on 3713 but not 1361 if such work can be handled at Steamtown, even if by different groups.

So a second valid question (again) is; Is there (ever) anything short of cash holding back the final restoration of PRR #1361? In other words, has anything CHANGED aside from a lack of current funds that precludes the future restoration of the engine?

/Mitch

Thank you Mitch. I wasn't certain what was really going on with PRR 1361. -_-

I'm not saying it's a taboo subject.

I'm not trying to stifle discussion.

I'm saying everything there is to say about the subject has already been said--multiple times, in multiple threads, here and elsewhere--and that there is NOTHING NEW to report.

At all.

So, rather than launch a whole 'nother round of discussion that gets nowhere, I suggest simply seeking the numerous past threads. Saves all of us a lot of time, after all.

The question would've been better had it been stated - "Someone please fill me in on THE LATEST regarding Pennsy K-4s 1361."

I do not recall hearing anything official since Strasburg's solution to a similar issue with a similar engine nor have I been witness to anything new since the decision to return 1361 back to Altoona which still has yet to be completed.

/Mitch

How bout just give an answer and leave it at that...

Fine. Here's the latest:

"............................................"

I am all about sharing information but this is a simple case of some pseudo poster nonsense. I find it annoying that people make up fake personalities and make these type of posts. The seem to center around the goings on in Pennsylvania and often have a tie-in with Steamtown. As a regular who tries to contribute for the good of the group I think the whole thread should be deleted. Look at how many of the posts related to goings on in PA have been started by someone who joined in the wee hours of the morning, does not use their name, and then toss out something like a K-4 or Steamtown thread. NONSENSE

First, as one of the moderators, Discussion of this engine is not banned… The problem is that in the past, during the discussion of this engine, people have violated the board’s rules…

As a railroad preservationist, we need a good accounting of this locomotive’s preservation history, including how decisions were made, to avoid the mistakes apparently made.

With that in mind, I would like to offer the following… (note, I am a westerner, an observer from a distance, not involved in the project) It is in the form of a Chronology… You must understand that the locomotive’s restoration history is intertwined with the history of the Altoona Railroader’s Memorial Museum…

The museum’s origins come from the local Horse Shoe Curve Chapter of the NRLHS. Out of this come formation of the Altoona Railway Museum Club, which becomes the Altoona Railway Museum Association (or visa versa).

During the 1970's Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS, did cosmetic repairs for the City of Altoona at Horseshoe Curve Park. Also during the 1970’s the Railroaders Memorial Museum is incorporated, A City redevelopment agreement includes a provision providing land for the museum. That museum opens in 1980. It has a couple of paid staff and a budget of about $100,000.

At this point the museum is a local museum, with lots of volunteer support, limited budget which it can support… but it also has lots of local support, including government support, and is considered a tourist draw…

In 1985, with assistance and guidance from Altoona State Representative Rick Geist, the locomotive underwent an assessment for possible return to service. When the assessment revealed it was feasible for a return to service, the Museum approached the City of Altoona. The City agreed to turn over title to the locomotive to the then new Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Conrail agreed to facilitate the removal of the K4 from the Curve. In September of 1986 the locomotive was towed off the Curve and into a shop in the Juniata complex.

The museum is still following a mostly volunteer model, but is also gaining local political support.

In 1986 the locomotive was removed and rebuilt for operation and did operate in excursion service. This restoration was a “get it running”, under a previous set of federal boiler rules. Using a mix of paid and volunteer labor the locomotive was returned to service in April 1987. For the next few years excursions were operated on non-Conrail short-lines in the region.

1987 The locomotive was named the “Official State (Commonwealth) Locomotive”. Now the locomotive and museum are gaining state government awareness and support that will eventually bring state grant money to the project

In 1988, while operating a "ferry" move en route back from York, PA, the locomotive suffered a catastrophic failure of a main bearing and drive axle. This resulted in restricted operation of the locomotive on a local basis. In the Fall of 1988 the locomotive was returned to the Conrail Juniata (Altoona) shop for further assessment. It was understood that any new work would need to meet the then new FRA boiler rules.

By 1992, after intensive inspection and testing Museum officials knew that further restoration for operation would be costly, estimated at the time to be $450,000.

1993, Museum acquires former PRR master mechanics building and an adjoining parcel of land. Plans are developing for a state of the art museum.

Fund-raising for locomotive repairs undertaken resulting in a major grant was awarded from the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage Preservation Commission. Armed with the funding, Museum officials began to look for how best to accomplish the work.

In 1994 the Museum signed a contract with the University of Scranton and the Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton for restoration of the locomotive. The University would provide project management and the Park would provide shop space, equipment and some labor.

In the Spring of 1995 the locomotive was loaded onto several high-capacity flat cars and moved to Scranton where restoration began later that year. A number of dedicated volunteers and two paid staff began working full-time on the restoration. The estimated cost of the restoration had escalated to just under $700,000.

1995, The Railroader’s Museum begins renovations of the master mechanic building. After much work, In 1998 the museum holds its grand opening. The new museum is spectacular... State of the art in all aspects. The new museum cost $10.3 million, they now have budget of $1.6 million and a staff of 30. The Museum also owns a 50% share in the Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art at Altoona; a $1.2 million effort that was developed and opened in 1996.

The new museum had significant local support. It was viewed as a significant community asset and had significant local support. It was a big project with big expenses.

About 2000 the new museum was in trouble… it was not getting the visitation expected (based on museum consultant’s estimates…) and the business model was not working. Essentially, but not formally the museum was bankrupt. A committee of creditors and local businessmen take over responsibility for managing the site. By 2002 Scott Cessna, one of the committee members becomes Executive Director. With lots of cost cutting and involvement he was making progress….

While the above was going on lots of state grant money was found for the locomotive… there were some management changes… I suspect that since the failure that sidelined the locomotive was in the running gear that the efforts to restore the locomotive concentrate there… Restoration management changes result in changing focus, but loss of “big picture” Big money is consumed in big ways… Questions are asked… the cost of the finished restoration grows to $3 million plus. Good restoration managers are now running the show…

2004, A significant boiler design flaw is found. Restoration is suspended pending a engineering solution. The boiler problem dates back to PRR design changes. All other PRR boilers with a similar engineering heritage have the same problem. Strasburg finds similar problems on a boiler they are restoring... they engineer a solution...

2007 - RMM board fires management and lets Salone Marketing Group (an event management, restaurant management company) run the museum. The RMM board is viewing the museum looking at the museum as a “draw” not as a historic site… as such the change makes economic sense for the local community… but not preservation sense… the locomotive project is suspended. Some parts have made it home… some remain at Steamtown…

In Conclusion... the museum grew fast… With costs growing fast... all driven by state grant money. The museum contracted out restoration management. They changed horses mid stream. The restoration folks concentrated on running gear… after all that was what failed. The boiler which was working well at the time, was given less scrutiny…

At the same time the museum grew fast… also driven by consultants…

Ultimately the economic model was found to be flawed.

A lot of good, competent people got caught up in the rise and fall… along with the locomotive.

Web sites consulted:

http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve- ... ground.htm

http://www.railroadcity.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroader ... ial_Museum

Past discussions on RYPN

Excellent and objective summary, Randy.

Thanks Randy very infromative, I did not know allot of history on this locomotive

Very clear summary. So, if I read this, or comprehend this summary correctly, the K4s is still on the restoration track, but until the money issue is resolved, restoration is suspended, not terminated.