In the post below, Jeff L asked if we can do away with the Ross "bashing", although I don't recall any criticism lately.

Lets examine the record.

Ross is a hell of a salesman. I admire the skill of a guy who managed to get pragmatic folks like the C&O/CSX and Foster-Wheeler et al to participate in the ACE idea and the Hinton coals trains that winter 17 years ago. The truth is, while it provided us with some excitement and great videos-did not even come close to accomplishing the mission of creating the the ACE 3000 engine.

He's managed to put big steam on the High Iron over 4 decades. Most of us enjoyed that-but everything has a cost.

Now for the other side of the ledger. There's at least three locomotives (614, 2101 & 759) which were run hard and when big maintenance time came, the running was over-others will have to pick up the pieces. The 614 with or without a 2.7 million dollar price tag is Ross' latest hurtin' pup.

In short Ross's venture's have been high-profile, high cost. It takes the shine away from the economically sustainable operations like Strasburg and may give other big-steam organizations difficulty in attaining credibility.

OPERATING preservation must accomplish the following:

1.) Operate within the limits of the equipment, so as to not subject irreplaceable/fundamental fabric items to destructive forces or conditions.

2.) Operate in a manner that enhances the credibility of steam operators with their hosts.

3.) Be economically sustainable or financially endowed.

While I might be missing something here, these three objectives must be met so that operating preservation is not reduced to a mere sideshow, what the WWF is to sports. I see three big engines sitting in need of major overhauls to run again-assuming of course the 2101 hasn't suffered permanent debilitation in the fire.

To criticize Ross on the basis that he's a harvestor not a grower (The normal complaint)and not meeting objective no. 3 is not "bashing". Its a reasonable evaluation by anybody interested in seeing big steam operating preservation continue in the first century in which it didn't "naturally" exist and among generations who have no memory and living relatives with memory of revenue steam days.

If I'm being unfair in someway-I invite friendly, vigorous debate.

> In the post below, Jeff L asked if we can do
> away with the Ross "bashing",
> although I don't recall any criticism
> lately.

This reason I say this Mike is because I know what it can lead to. Over the course of the last year or so, between two boards, people bashing or critisizing Ross really hard. I'm just tired of hearing about it, sorta like the Bigboy scam, uh oh, I hope no one heard that...

You have many valid points in your post. Good insightful reading. I'm not saying you are bashing Ross. But it can start to happen.

People have their opinions and I respect that, but when two of the biggest internet topics are between the BigBoy resto and Ross Rowland, it gets to be boring.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

Great music!
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

Mike,

I'll never understand why people continue to fan the flames that posts like do. You are doing a service to anyone by inciting the same tired banter.

As a rule, anyone who accomplishes anything gets run through the bashing of the armchair engineers. We've all heard them... here in the east fans make derogatory comments abut Andy Muller's ops, Ross, Starsburg, Steamtown... the list goes on.

> Lets examine the record.

Let's examine it with some facts. All you have done is spread the same gossip that has circulated in the fan realm for decades. I have never, repeat, never, seen any factualy basis for 99% of what I have heard.

In fact, during quiet times when I have been able to speak with Ross one-on-one, a very different picture evolves. I interviewed Ross back in 1996 or so, and I have to tell you, there is a hell of a lot more to what he's pulled off than the average railfan knows.

My reminder to you is that there are two sides to every coin. Rarely, if ever, does the railfan rumor mill pick up Ross's side of the coin. Why? I do not know.

> Ross is a hell of a salesman. I admire the
> skill of a guy who managed to get pragmatic
> folks like the C&O/CSX and
> Foster-Wheeler et al to participate in the
> ACE idea and the Hinton coals trains that
> winter 17 years ago. The truth is, while it
> provided us with some excitement and great
> videos-did not even come close to
> accomplishing the mission of creating the
> the ACE 3000 engine.

So, you want to start with what is percieved as a failure? The ACE 3000 is still a dream that may someday be revived. However, the project did more than provide buffs with excitement. It did result in the kind of data the backers were looking for at the time. Again, buffs see it one way, there is another side.

I think you would better be served by starting a conversation about Ross with the American Freedom Train, which remains the biggest rail show EVER. Toss in the Golden Spike Limited and you have two of the biggest events one could imagine. And both were pulled off very well.

> He's managed to put big steam on the High
> Iron over 4 decades. Most of us enjoyed
> that-but everything has a cost.

Yes. The cost of the ticket. Hopefully, everyone with an opinion ponied up the dough to ride.

> Now for the other side of the ledger.
> There's at least three locomotives (614,
> 2101 & 759) which were run hard and when
> big maintenance time came, the running was
> over-others will have to pick up the pieces.
> The 614 with or without a 2.7 million dollar
> price tag is Ross' latest hurtin' pup.

Says who? #2101 was operable when the fire happened. Do you blame Ross for that? #759 would have been an AFT engine if not for some issues unrelated to mechanical condition. It was only the Steamtown Foundation's decision and the NPS priorities that have kept her cold. She is #2 on Steamtown's restoration list, so how bad off is she?

Now for #614. Again, railfan rumor is rampant. You'd think she had her wheels fall off. I am very close to folks who knwo her condition. She is not a basket case.

Sorry, Mike, but none of these 3 engines were abused by Ross and deemed sorry wrecks.

Heck, why go negative? If not for Ross and his projects, #4449 and #2100 would not be operable today (remember he was involved with #2100). Even old #2102 may not have had her third life.

> In short Ross's venture's have been
> high-profile, high cost. It takes the shine
> away from the economically sustainable
> operations like Strasburg and may give other
> big-steam organizations difficulty in
> attaining credibility.

Really? Again, no proof, Mike. Just speculation. People were crying that after Ross, NJ Transit would never run steam. Ha! NYS&W #142 has had two visits scheduled since. One went well and one was cancelled due to 9/11.

So much for another Ross-bash.

> OPERATING preservation must accomplish the
> following:

> 1.) Operate within the limits of the
> equipment, so as to not subject
> irreplaceable/fundamental fabric items to
> destructive forces or conditions.

Again, there is no evidence that Ross violated your rule #1. None. If running repairs to keep steam afloat are part of "abuse" then I guess Rich Melvin beat the hell out of #765, right?

Of course he didn't. An engine needing work is not a sign of mishandling.

> 2.) Operate in a manner that enhances the
> credibility of steam operators with their
> hosts.

Again, Ross seems to have done this. Every railroad he has operated on has seen steam since. NJT, CSX, the anthracite lines...

> 3.) Be economically sustainable or
> financially endowed.

Hmmm... another interesting point. If Ross is the evil one here, you better watch how far you cast that net. The list of engines and operators who have met with the difficult realities of this include: 2102, 425, 814, 3751, 2100, 700, 765, 611, 1218, 60, 108, 26, 1361... and so on. I hope we are not going to villify all the good people who have been pinched by the economic crisis facing steam ops.

> While I might be missing something here,
> these three objectives must be met so that
> operating preservation is not reduced to a
> mere sideshow, what the WWF is to sports. I
> see three big engines sitting in need of
> major overhauls to run again-assuming of
> course the 2101 hasn't suffered permanent
> debilitation in the fire.

How can you assume that #2101 was up the creek before the fire? Mike, I am sorry, but this is Ross bashing that many of us are tired of.

The man is human, and I didn't notice horns or cloven feet on any occaision of meeting with him.

There is so much more that is not part of the railfan rumor mythology about Ross. It is not my place to discuss another's affairs.

Let it be said that many of the rumors are libelous at the very least.

I am convinced that with some folks, there is a jealousy issue. Ross has pulled off the impossible more than once. I think some buffs are threatened by that.

> To criticize Ross on the basis that he's a
> harvestor not a grower (The normal
> complaint)and not meeting objective no. 3 is
> not "bashing". Its a reasonable
> evaluation by anybody interested in seeing
> big steam operating preservation continue in
> the first century in which it didn't
> "naturally" exist and among
> generations who have no memory and living
> relatives with memory of revenue steam days.

It is not reasonable to do so with half-truths and rumors.

My opinion, and this is pure conjecture, is that becuase Ross is outgoing and has had tremendous accomplishments, many folks who have failed to pull off thier ops need to villify him.

If it is all about the machines, I will close with this thought about the condition of the engines Ross's trains have run:

2100: Rescued from Baltimore scrap yard by Rowland in 1975 and used for parts for #2101. Later restored to service by a consortium including Rowland. Now owned by Tom Payne and is operable.

2101: Rescued from a scrap yard by Rowland in 1974 and restored to service in old Reading Shops. Used on the AFT and Chessie excursions. In operable condition when stuck in an enginehouse fire and damaged. Now on display in Baltimore.

2102: Leased from Steam Tours for excursions by Rowland's High Iron Company in early '70's. Has operated numerous times since. Owned by Andy Muller awaiting restoration.

#614: Traded by B&O Museum for damaged #2101. Rowland restored #614 to operating condition and continued her excoursion career and then the ACE 3000 testing. Now owned by Rowland and stored serviceable at Port Clinton, PA awaiting routine maint.

#759: Leased by High Iron from the Steamtown Foundation in the early 1970's. Returned at end of lease. Subject of many rumors of improper care, including neglect after return to Vermont where she spent 10+ years outside in the elements. Now indoors in Scranton awaiting restoration.

#4449: Rescued from a park for use on the American Freedom Train. Continues to operated today for owner City of Portland. Never owned by Rowland, but restored for his AFT.

#610: Restored for AFT service, later went on to run on the Southern Rwy. Out of service.

There were also trips High Iron sponsored with Strasburg #90, CPR #1278 and others. All of which operated long after.

So, if you do the math of just the six 8-drivered engines which owe some debt to Rowland for their operation in 1970's and 1980's:

2 are operable (#2100, #4449)
1 is near operable (#614)
2 are awaiting restoration funding (#2102, #759)
1 was burned and is probably forever a static display

Hmmm.... not too bad a record, eh? The only basket case of the bunch MAY be #2101 from the fire, not from Ross. Of the other 5, 3 are in decent shape and 2 are funding candidates.

Where's the issue? None were scrapped. There's no legacy like Dick Jensen.

I just don't see the hubub having any merit.

Rob

> If I'm being unfair in someway-I invite
> friendly, vigorous debate.

PS: You got it! :-)


trains@robertjohndavis.com

I found the unedited text of my 1997 article for IN Jersey. I sat with Ross for over 3 hours discussing everything from the highest achievements to the missed-opportunities. I found him to very open and forthright.

I didn't edit this, so please excuse my array of typos and grammmmmatical errrors.

Rob

-------

Ross E. Rowland, Jr. article, 9/1997

Question: What do you need to operate a 48 year old, 434 ton, 112.5 foot long steam locomotive on a New Jersey mainline railroad in 1997?

Answer: Ross E. Rowland, Jr.

Who? A legendary figure in railroad circles, Rowland's name is not exactly one tossed around the dinner table of the average New Jersey family, but that may change. Last year over 6,000 people rode behind his steam locomotive, former Chesapeake & Ohio #614, on a series of sold-out autumn leaf excursions from Hoboken to Port Jervis, NY. Thousands more flocked to trackside to witness the monstrous locomotive speed through the North Jersey suburbs flanking NJ Transit's old Erie Railroad line to Mahwah and lower New York State. With ten more excursions planned this year, the name Ross E. Rowland, Jr. will definitely be in the spotlight, though he would prefer to let his train be the star.

Visitors to his office in the lovingly restored Jersey Central depot at Lebanon, NJ are overwhelmed by evidence of Rowland's railroad success. The polished woodwork of the 97 year-old station is decorated with photographs of Rowland with Presidents, movie stars and locomotives. Red, white and blue momentos remind guests of his most famous train: the American Freedom Train, a traveling display of American history which celebrated the nation's Bicentennial and brought three famous steam locomotives back to life. A full length HO scale model of the patriotic train snakes along one wall of his personal office space.

Rowland got into the steam train business in 1968. A successful commodities trader with a passion for old trains (his father worked for the Jersey Central Railroad), Rowland founded the High Iron Company to promote steam excursions in the New Jersey area. Not one to do things on a small scale, it only took a year for him to roll one of the longest steam joyrides ever run. The Golden Spike Limited took passengers from Grand Central Station to Promontory, Utah to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the laying of the Golden Spike, which marked the completion of North America's first transcontinental railroad.

During the late '60's and early '70's, Rowland ran a series of excursions from Hoboken. At that time, he had two locomotives. The first was #759, a 2-8-4 type built by the Lima Locomotive works of Lima, Ohio in 1944 for the Nickel Plate Railroad. Used primarily on midwestern routes, the big "Berkshire"- type was preserved by Steamtown, USA, who leased it to High Iron. #759 was built to similar standards used for the Erie Railroad's "Berkshires" which frequented the North Jersey region until the mid-50's.

The second excursion engine was Reading #2012. In the '02, Rowland had a bonafide Jersey relic. A T-1 class 4-8-4 "Northern" type, the locomotive was a common sight on the head-end of fast freights on the Reading's line from Trenton to Bound Brook and then over the Jersey Central line through Plainfield to Jersey City. The engine was already famous from the Reading's series of Iron Horse Rambles, which were the forerunners of Rowland's excursions.

#759 and #2102 took over a thousand passengers at a time to scenic destinations in the Poconos and Catskills, plus the occasional foray to far-off cities including Montreal and Salt Lake City. Trains primarily utilized the tracks of the Erie-Lackawanna, Reading, jersey Central and Delaware & Hudson railroads. While these early Rowland excursions were targeted at train buffs, they also served as a proving ground for Rowland's greatest dream; the American Freedom Train. #759 and #2102 went on to other careers, and today they share space at the National Park Service's roundhouse in Scranton, PA. #759 is part of the NPS' Steamtown collection and is stored inoperable, having last steamed in 1973. The '02 is owned by the Reading and Northern Railroad and was used on excursions in the 1980's and early 1990's. It is being overhauled.

Taken at face value, the idea of the American Freedom Train seemed impossible. Imagine, if you will, the Smithsonian Institution packing itself into a twenty-plus car train using three separate steam locomotives -- none of which had run in years -- to pull it from town to town. In a nutshell, that was the dream... and Rowland made it a reality.

The project was immense. An elaborate train was constructed from old passenger cars. Exhibits were obtained from the greatest collections of American history. Some of our countries greatest treasures were placed aboard the train and taken directly to the American public.

Rowland rescued another Reading T-1 steam engine, #2101, from a scrap yard in Baltimore and performed a full overhaul in Reading, Pa using the very shop where the engine was constructed three decades earlier. It emerged as American Freedom Train #1, the "America."

In April of 1975, the AFT hit the rails. On it's very first day of operation, the train rolled across New Jersey and stopped for servicing at the Waverly train yards in Newark. It returned to New Jersey for display in Asbury Park. After western and southern trips pulled by restored Southern Pacific engine #449 and Texas & Pacific engine #610, the American Freedom Train rolled into the history books.

After an exhaustive event like the AFT, one might think Rowland would rest, but he kept #2101 under his ownership and began a long series of excursions on the Chessie System Railroads. The big T-1, dressed in an elaborate yellow, blue and vermilion paint job, pulled the Chessie Steam Specials across the vast southern system.

In 1979, tragedy struck #2101. While the engine was resting at the Silver Grove, KY roundhouse between excursions, a fire broke out. The roundhouse was destroyed and the proud locomotive suffered extensive damage. For the first time in a decade, it seemed like Rowland was out of the steam train business.

The Chessie System did not want the steam program to end, and the company found itself to be in the unique position of helping Rowland. The railroad had a museum in Baltimore (which continues to operate today separate from the railroad) which displayed various examples of historic trains. Chessie offered for sale to Rowland C&O #614, one of the last mainline steam locomotives ever built and a fine example of modern steam power, in exchange for #2101 cosmetically restored as American Freedom Train #1. Rowland accepted. Today, #2101 remains in Baltimore, preserved in her patriotic glory. (Freedom Train #4449 still runs occasionally in the Pacific Northwest, with AFT #610 had a short excursion career and is now stored in Texas.)

#614 hit the rails on the revived Chessie steam program, but once again Rowland had bigger dreams. During the early 1980's, Rowland put the locomotive into coal train service on Chessie lines in West Virginia. The locomotive was equipped with microprocessors and monitoring equipment to serve as a test bed for the ACE 3000.

With oil demand increasing and prices rising, Rowland envisioned the need for a fully-modern coal-powered locomotive to replace the need for diesel fuel on the railroad. The ACE-3000 was planned to do just that. The railroads of America were once a great customer of the coal mining industry. When diesel locomotives replaced team trains, that business was lost for both he mines and the railroads that hauled the coal. The ACE 3000 plan received support from rail and coal interests. The testing went without a hitch, but before a prototype could be built, oil prices dropped and the project was mothballed. Rowland still hopes to see the ACE project through to completion.

During the 1980's, the tide began to turn against mainline steam excursions. Insurance rates soared and the railroads became less tolerant of public outings sharing rails with their time freights. Mergers sucked up the lines Rowland had previously run on, and he was left to negotiate with larger and larger companies that seem less and less interested in their steam railroading past. #614 sat cold in Cumberland, Maryland awaiting a call to steam again.

Throughout his time on the rails, Rowland continued his successful commodities business. He was instrumental in founding the Commodity Exchange's Children's Fund which has raised over $6 million dollars for children's charities. Photos in his office include one of President and Mrs. Bush traveling to the Army-Navy football game in Rowland's private rail car. All along, Rowland's success depended upon valued connections and friendships. His efforts with the Freedom rain gained him an audience with the most influential people in America. He served for five years on Amtrak's Board of Directors during the '80's. Several projects, including a Freedom Train-like 21st Century Limited never left the drawing board.

During this time, steam trips were never far from his mind, and with retirement looming ahead, Rowland decided to give his New Jersey excursions another try. Attempting to repeat his early '70's success twenty five years later proved to be no easy task. Times had changed. The eastern railroads were now operating as one system, Conrail, which had a very negative view on steam trains. Passenger operations had been turned over to government authorities. The coaches Rowland's early excursions used were all retired, replaced by modern fleets of cars belonging to NJ Transit and Metro-North commuter agencies. Facilities to turn steam locomotives were even scarcer. Not many old turntables remained 40 years after regular steam service had ended. Insurance companies and railroads required huge premiums to cover the operation of vintage trains. The few mainline steam trips run in New Jersey since Rowland's days were not all professionally run, and both Conrail and NJ Transit were reluctant to get burned by a train buff with big dreams.

Of course, Rowland is not the average train buff. He brought #614 north to New Hope, Pennsylvania for a full restoration on the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad. While the engine was being readied for a return, Rowland worked hard to get his steam show back on the rails. Knowing that railfans do not exist in the numbers needed to support big-time steam trains, his new Iron Horse Enterprises sought out a trip which would appeal to the general public. Using NJ Transit's Hoboken Terminal as a starting point, Rowland investigated possible destinations. With the cooperation of NJ Transit, Port Jervis was selected. The scenic town alongside the Delaware River is a railroad town from the earliest days of American trains. It's scenic location and country charm could entertain passengers who would also be enthralled by the beauty of the trip which included the huge Moodna Viaduct. Most importantly, Port Jervis still boasted a vintage turntable. Through the generosity of local businesses, the city would restore the relic to operation. With that, Rowland had what he needed.

October 1996 saw a series of six sold-out trips to Port Jervis. #614 performed flawlessly, lifting the NUMBER car trains up the steep grade from Port Jervis, then whisking them through North Jersey at commuter train speeds. It had been 20 years since a steam engine as big as #614 pulled passengers from Hoboken, and the public welcomed the return of the steam train. Knowing that his audience was made of the general public -- not train buffs -- he turned his attention to what he does best: putting on a show. Each afternoon in Port Jervis included three or four demonstration "run-bys.' While the trains passengers were waiting to re-board, Rowland would back the train up north of town, and then come charging through at speed with he whistle blowing and smoke billowing from the racing locomotive. Passengers and onlookers lined the tracks for over a mile, some taking photographs and some just enveloped in the marvel of watching a steam locomotive work on a mainline railroad.

Iron Horse Enterprises has another 10 Hoboken-based trips scheduled for 1997. See the accompanying article for dates and details. As the northeast railroad scene changes with more mergers, Rowland is optimistic about the chance to expand his trips to new destinations, while keeping the departure point at Hoboken. His plans for the ACE 3000 coal engine remain quiet, but he is confident that the ACE's time will come. Until then, he continues to maintain #614 in top condition. His small crew is working on new open-air excursion cars which will let passengers experience the steam trips in new ways. The man who brought steam trains back to New Jersey in 1968 is still at it three decades later. And we are all invited to share in his dreams.


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> 2.) Operate in a manner that enhances the
> credibility of steam operators with their
> hosts.

Mike,

Something I forgot (and I know this from the Rowland and NJT persepectives). NJ Transit and Conrail had some very bad experiences with excursions in the period of 1985-1995 or so. Very bad.

Rowland had to do tremendous bridge building to repair the bad blood caused by previous excursions that were not well organized or executed.

The fact is, it took years after the last bad trip for Rowland to convince NJT to get its feet wet again.

The #614 excursions were a major PR coup for NJT, and the agency has not been as shy about steam in the post-Rowland days as they were before.

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

Rob:
> >
> Let's examine it with some facts. All you
> have done is spread the same gossip that has
> circulated in the fan realm for decades.

I DISAGREE! I specifically chose to deal only with the issue that Ross has never had a sustained multi-overhaul operation, rather than
the "libelous" gossip that swirls about him. I have not dealt with the man, I have no first-hand of his business or operating practices and therefore confined myself to the public record which we all can see and put in context.
>
> My reminder to you is that there are two
> sides to every coin. Rarely, if ever, does
> the railfan rumor mill pick up Ross's side
> of the coin. Why? I do not know.

I think I gave him credit for INITIATING a great deal. Its the finish that's missing. "hell of a salesman" is not a pejorative term. The problem is operation has always been paramount, with issues of maintenance being something that is secondary.

As for the idea that the '01's fire and the issues surrounding the 759, part of preservation is adequate physical custody and proper storage. This has not happened.

I do not think the guy has "cloven hoofs" or anything like that. To me, a successful operation would have kept 759 running before firing up the 2101 and 614, thats all.

Geez!

Mike,

You are still missing the point, and you are still posting erroneous facts.

> I DISAGREE! I specifically chose to deal
> only with the issue that Ross has never had
> a sustained multi-overhaul operation, rather
> than
> the "libelous" gossip that swirls
> about him. I have not dealt with the man, I
> have no first-hand of his business or
> operating practices and therefore confined
> myself to the public record which we all can
> see and put in context.

First item, #614 has been well maintained by Ross over various overhauls and operated sporadically over a 20 year period. So you are wrong in saying he has "never" done this.

Secondly, you are repeating a "public record" loaded with fallacies. All the "public record" does is promote many untruths in this situation. If I listened to the railfan "public record" and used that as defense, I could post all sorts of untruths.

Maybe you should speak with him and get some first hand info.

> I think I gave him credit for INITIATING a
> great deal. Its the finish that's missing.
> "hell of a salesman" is not a
> pejorative term. The problem is operation
> has always been paramount, with issues of
> maintenance being something that is
> secondary.

If finishing is a problem, then how do you explain the 100% complete job of the AFT and the Chessie Steam Specials? Or the fact that #614 is still in good shape and in need of her new FRA compliance being completed?

The also completed the ACE 3000 tests. "Finishing" was not a reason the ACE 3000 project has not materialized.

> As for the idea that the '01's fire and the
> issues surrounding the 759, part of
> preservation is adequate physical custody
> and proper storage. This has not happened.

Ross Rowland NEVER OWNED #759. She was returned from her lease to Steamtown UNDER STEAM and in need of tube renewal. Her owners, the Steamtown Foundation, were ultimately responsible for her long-term exposure to the elements and for not repairing her. And even at that, examinations by the NPS in the late 1980's have shown she is restorable. If you really want to delve into the NKP#759 story you will find many reasons why she was not used on the AFT.

The '01 burned in an enginehouse fire. Chessie was as suprised as anyone! There were no custodial issues with the '01 that night. Chessie had burned units, too.

Do you want steam owners to sleep in their roundhouses with a fire pumper next to them? Better call Jack Showalter and make sure he has a cot in Stanton.

> I do not think the guy has "cloven
> hoofs" or anything like that. To me, a
> successful operation would have kept 759
> running before firing up the 2101 and 614,
> thats all.

As I said, #759 did not belong to Ross. He had no control over her long-term. He felt he required an engine that he could control for the AFT. So, that being the case, he rescued #2101 from a scrap yard and ran her for years before she was damaged in the fire. And only THEN did he restore #614.

> Geez!

I'll see your "Geez" and raise it a "Sheesh," Mike. You asked for a vigorous debate, but I cannot debate you until you get the facts straight.

For the time line:

#2102 was leased. #759's lease expired. Then #2101 was restored and owned by Rowland. She burned. Then #614 was restored.

There is no trail of broken steam as the rumors you retread state. These events were not cuased by carelessness. As I said before, this isn't Dick Jensen we are talking about.

The "public record" is not a defense to spreading untruths.

May the vigorus debate continue. :-)

Rob

I think you are talking about the 765. Ross had it at E-port for a short time but returned it and got the 2101 to use.

> Mike,

> You are still missing the point, and you are
> still posting erroneous facts.

> First item, #614 has been well maintained by
> Ross over various overhauls and operated
> sporadically over a 20 year period. So you
> are wrong in saying he has "never"
> done this.

> Secondly, you are repeating a "public
> record" loaded with fallacies. All the
> "public record" does is promote
> many untruths in this situation. If I
> listened to the railfan "public
> record" and used that as defense, I
> could post all sorts of untruths.

> Maybe you should speak with him and get some
> first hand info.

> If finishing is a problem, then how do you
> explain the 100% complete job of the AFT and
> the Chessie Steam Specials? Or the fact that
> #614 is still in good shape and in need of
> her new FRA compliance being completed?

> The also completed the ACE 3000 tests.
> "Finishing" was not a reason the
> ACE 3000 project has not materialized.

> Ross Rowland NEVER OWNED #759. She was
> returned from her lease to Steamtown UNDER
> STEAM and in need of tube renewal. Her
> owners, the Steamtown Foundation, were
> ultimately responsible for her long-term
> exposure to the elements and for not
> repairing her. And even at that,
> examinations by the NPS in the late 1980's
> have shown she is restorable. If you really
> want to delve into the NKP#759 story you
> will find many reasons why she was not used
> on the AFT.

> The '01 burned in an enginehouse fire.
> Chessie was as suprised as anyone! There
> were no custodial issues with the '01 that
> night. Chessie had burned units, too.

> Do you want steam owners to sleep in their
> roundhouses with a fire pumper next to them?
> Better call Jack Showalter and make sure he
> has a cot in Stanton.

> As I said, #759 did not belong to Ross. He
> had no control over her long-term. He felt
> he required an engine that he could control
> for the AFT. So, that being the case, he
> rescued #2101 from a scrap yard and ran her
> for years before she was damaged in the
> fire. And only THEN did he restore #614.

> I'll see your "Geez" and raise it
> a "Sheesh," Mike. You asked for a
> vigorous debate, but I cannot debate you
> until you get the facts straight.

> For the time line:

> #2102 was leased. #759's lease expired. Then
> #2101 was restored and owned by Rowland. She
> burned. Then #614 was restored.

> There is no trail of broken steam as the
> rumors you retread state. These events were
> not cuased by carelessness. As I said
> before, this isn't Dick Jensen we are
> talking about.

> The "public record" is not a
> defense to spreading untruths.

> May the vigorus debate continue. :-)

> Rob



lvrr@enter.net

> I think you are talking about the 765.

No we are talking about 759, now residing in Scranton. She ran on the trips in Vermont back in October of 1973 between New Hampshire and Vermont.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

Great music!
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

>Its pretty clear that what is going on here is losing all sense of proportionality and is becoming way to inflammatory.

Using words like "untruths" smacks of some kind of religious argument. One person even made reference to "cloven hooves"- a traditional biblical reference to evil. Ross is not devil nor saint. My argument is the lack of prefunding for required heavy maintence-I made no ad hominen arguments against the guy.

I see one respondent used the word "sporadically" in his or her counter-assertion that these have been economically sustained operations and then says I'm not getting the point. Trust me, I have an MBA in Finance, I understand capital budgeting, sinking funds, present and future values. What I don't get is this for him/against him dichotomy.

Saying the engine was leased is specious (in some cases leased items are required to be treated as owned) and doesn't change the fact that these engines aren't operational now.

Here's my bottom line. You want to see a sustained operation? Check out the Strasburg, the IRM,1225,261, 1522 or 4449. With the 1225, where every decision to run is explicitly made with the idea of incorporating the cost of the next overhaul into the price of operation. One of their guys did an article a few years ago, well worth the readin- I THINK it was a column in TRAINS.

As for the 2101, 759 and 614. They aren't running-they won't run until and/or unless another party antes significant moneys. That point was well made when it was pointed out that it was second in STEAMTOWNS priority list.

If you are aware of some financial provisions to the contrary-lets us know.

It seems to me that Ross' contribution to OUR advocation in raising the public's awareness of railroads, railroading, and its magnificent past has only been exceeded by Thomas the Tank Engine.

I believe that many younger people who post here and are involved with the RR preservation effort caught the virus watching the AFT pass.

You cannot not expect an individual to have unlimited assets to maintain one of these engines forever, no more than you can expect every museum tp have every artifact in A-1 pristine condition. To fault Ross for not throwing more money at these creatures is just plainly unfair.

I thank Mr. Rowland for giving my sons the opportunity to see mainline steam at "Speed" on a spring evening in 1976. It sure had an impact on their lives.

I also thank Ross for giving all of us something we would not have experienced had he not undertaken any one his magnificent ventures.



v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

High Iron's lease period with #759 saw her go as far Utah. She ran triups on the WM and the E-L amiong others. It was quite a show and was my introduction to big steam as a kid.

Rob

> No we are talking about 759, now residing in
> Scranton. She ran on the trips in Vermont
> back in October of 1973 between New
> Hampshire and Vermont.

> Jeff Lisowski
> West Chester, Pa


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Trust me, I have an MBA in Finance, I understand capital
> budgeting, sinking funds, present and future
> values. What I don't get is this for
> him/against him dichotomy.

Trust me, I have an MS in Communications. That makes me no better or worse equipped for the content of this board.

You asked for a debate and you got one. :-)

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> If I read your post correctly, what you are saying implicitly is ITS impossible to find a way to run Ross's style of trip (big engine/high iron) in a way that generates enough money to maintain the engine and that continued operation demands periodic infustions of outside capital.

If that's the case, then what is needed is the establishment of a fund/endowment/trust so that such trips can be run for their macro-promotional value without regard to micro economic viability.

I can't see anything that's inherently non-self sustaining continuing indefinitely, especially as it becomes somebody else's distant past.

If it is inherently impossible, then I'll say Ross took the first step and its all of us who are guilty of not providing the sustaining capital. Fair enough?

> High Iron's lease period with #759 saw her
> go as far as Utah.

> Rob

No way. Never went west of Kansas City.