As regards the use of steam vs. diesel power on tourist lines, its often been said here and elsewhere that the public (not railfans) pays the bills, and they don't care to know the difference.

Certainly, no one could dispute that the railfans are a small segment of the market for such operations. As far as the general public goes, they probably don't care about the difference [b][i]once they're aboard the train[/b][/i], especially where a lot of tourist lines use coaches with sealed windows.

But - is it really true that they don't care if steam or diesel is on the head pin? I would argue that once they get on the train it doesn't make a difference - but seeing a fire-breathing steam loco will get more people on the train in the first place, than the sight of a diesel, no matter how historic or lovingly restored it may be. Thoughts?

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, when the Wilmington & Western RR--which, I should note, is a long-established steam RR, started in 1965 with two steam locomotives and a weekends-only lease of a B&O line--would have to substitute a diesel for the steamers, either by planned rotation or because of a problem with the steamers, I was told by station guys and officials that you could count on passenger loadings being a pretty much consistent 50% of the numbers for the steamers. It was such a rule of thumb that they could apply that to budgetary planning.

I'm certain that the numbers would vary by operation. For example, if the Strasburg suddenly started running diesel instead of steam, I would predict a 75% drop in ridership--okay, maybe not THAT bad, what with the museum across the street, but still..... Someplace like the EBT, Western Md. Scenic, or Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern, which market their steam? 50%, I'm betting. Grand Canyon? No one notices--they're providing a passenger service with entertainment thrown in. Places like Arcade & Attica, or Black River & Western? Maybe a drop, but not critical. Places like Greenfield Village and Huckleberry are an anomaly. Conway Scenic or Valley RR? There's the real question, and the folks with good answers.

If they don't care, its our jobs to compel them to do so.

The competition is high for active, engaging experiences, and captivating the audience should be our primary task. Steam is a theatrical machine playing to a small house.

It's not enough to set up running and say, "Here, enjoy and appreciate this." Passengers and visitors have to know why. I think the key is presenting a personal/emotional context and the technical/historical one.

I think adopting a "the public doesn't care" attitude is a massive disservice (especially for a non-profit, which most of us operate as, save for a few.) I've seen posts about "nobody will care if it's painted pink" and that just floors me. That's not stewardship. It's laziness.

Just like a "train ride" can no longer just be ride: it has to serve a function and be an experience unto itself. People may still come along for a trip or excursion regardless of the motive power, but every member of the public is potential repeat business/future supporter. And many will automatically appreciate steam, but they may not appreciate its challenges; there's a story to tell there, too. Marketing doesn't stop when your passengers step aboard. A passive experience can be just as bad as poor public relations.

I can only relate my experience at our venue which runs diesel only....

I would say less than 5% of our guests ever ask about steam. Most of our market is families and that come not just for a train ride, but to be ENTERTAINED.

Entertainment is a broad subject. However, most of our guests enjoy hearing the history of our line, the points of interest along the line, the engine running around the train at the end of the line before heading back, etc.
Parents love having their child's picture taken with the conductor. When I am conducting this can take a lot of effort to do while still running the train, but I do it.

I have ridden several tourist lines where the crew and staff hardly spoke a word to anyone. Furthermore, if you asked a question it was like you spoiled their day.

You must do all you can to make the train ride an enjoyable experience regardless of what's on the point. That doesn't mean just loading butts in seats and then ignoring them for the duration of the trip.

That being said, if you advertise steam and are known for steam I would be disappointed if I got there and it wasn't running.

Bill houston
Heart of Dixie RRM
Calera, AL

I think Kelly hit the nail on the head. It is our job to make steam "a big deal". Same applies to rare diesels, electric cars and so on.

I think the best examples are some of the formerly steam-only operations that now operate those engines on select dates. Conway Scenic, Wilmington & Western and now Grand Canyon come to mind. In essence the message is "We have a great ride, but if you want to see something REALLY special, come this weekend." This in turn makes the appearance of a steam locomotive special in of itself. Then you can take it a step further and explain why steam is special.

I'd be interested to learn how the numbers have trended at former steam operations that have not those engines at all in recent years. Black River & Western and Mid Continent what make for a good starting point. I wonder how being diesel only for the time being is effecting the Wanamaker Kempton & Southern.

It would also be interesting to compare the numbers for operations that have recently returned steam to the rails, such as the Arcade & Attica.

Dave Crosby

A. D. Mitchell's response echoes what I was told when I was gathering information for my abortive attempt at a Class I steam operation almost 30 years ago. This was that if you had a good operation that people wanted to ride (history, scenery, destination, that sort of thing), steam paid for itself in extra ticket sales. This emphasises what you really need for a successful operation, which, as they say in real estate, is location, location, location.

I've been told that some British operations charge a "steam supplement" to a regular fare when steam is running.

Granted, this is Britain, but I've also been told steam operations were one of a number of important keys in keeping the spectacular Settle & Carlysle line open. Supposedly it was not the only one, but at the same time, the loss would be inevitable without it.

My source (a writer from Britain, a wonderful gentleman who was one of the consultants on "Murder On The Orient Express," and who passed away too soon) said the steam operation brought in six times the money the regular operation did, partially due to the steam supplemental fare.

At the same time, we may want to consider an experience I had photographing WM's 734 as it came back into Cumberland from a street bridge over the track. Some teen girl came along, and wondered what I was up to. The steamer came along, and she asked, "Is that a steam train?" She had never seen it before, and did comment that her father ranted and raved about his tax money going to support this operation, and he was never going to set foot on it.

This is funny to me, considering that the WMSR, when threatened with a loss of state support, was found to be at least breaking even and was debt free, while nearby Rocky Gap State Park, a more typical operation of resort, lake, and golf course, had at that time cost $30 million to build and had accumulated another $30 million in operating losses up to that time.

The state pulled the trackwork support; I don't know if Rocky Gap improved its financial performance or not.

We don't get no respect!

One thing that has left a lasting impression with me about many operations, both steam and diesel, are all the opportunities to interest and educate the public that are simply overlooked. With steam locomotives this includes the mechanics and operation of the machine and its auxiliary equipment, which are fascinating topics that can be of great interest when competently presented. With diesel roadswitchers, if you walked away without opening all the hood doors and taking a look at the machinery, you missed an opportunity to see one of the finest and most interesting training aids ever created. This of course gets us back to the "educational" function that is a proudly paraded component of many organizations mission statements, but tends to be pushed to the back burner in practice.

PC

Steam makes a huge difference if it is publicized as the feature event. If you're selling rides, nobody cares.

Steam Counts on the Nevada Northern Railway Museum

Check out these older outstanding articles by our executive director, Mark Bassett

http://nnry.com/throttle/throttle090702.htm

http://nnry.com/throttle/throttle010403.htm



Anthony

At the risk of opening old wounds, these two articles could be part of an excellent case for a steam program as a PR tool for the Class 1s, especially if you cross-refernce them to the NIMBY article in the latest edition of Trains.

Of course, you also have to recognise that the opinions of some of those NIMBYs couldn't be moved with dynamite; it's an article of faith to them that we belong with stagecoaches. . .

The steam locomotive preservation industry a large task to complete. With all the phony amusement small scale "steam" trains and simulators, the public doesn't realize what is real. It's common for riders to ask if the steam locomotives at the Henry Ford are real as the fireman shovels coal, dumps ash or takes on water from a water column (which people think is gasoline). People assume it's just a slick simulation. I've had puzzled looks from a visitor who couldn't believe the engine didn't stall when the drivers stopped since there is no clutch, and how low the RPMs were. It's a great time to educate the visitor when a working steam locomotive is around, something you can't do with a diesel.

Next time I have a crowd of people gathered around a GP9 to explain the machinery I will have to make a point of advising them that they are not being "educated".

Diesels have been used in active teaching and live "interpretation" for decades now. EMD delivered FT's with the piping systems all color coded for training, and paraded their "visible" F-units all around the US railroads.

Gosh, I even have a photo somewhere around here of a guy giving a "tech talk" with about 100 people gathered around an SD45 in a railroad yard in Marion Ohio, back in the distant past of railroading, the 1970s. Even in those days you could educate visitors using a diesel, provided you were willing to make the effort and share your knowledge.

PC

"Steam makes a huge difference if it is publicized as the feature event. If you're selling rides, nobody cares."

And it makes an even bigger difference if the advertised power is steam and you substitute diesel, no matter what the reason, no matter how prominent the "right to substitute" disclaimer is on the ticket, they will scream.

Part of the story of steam is it's demise. The thing that drove a stake through its heart was 567 powered EMD's, and to a lesser extent Alco S & RS series engines.

This year, we've run excursions with Steam and diesel @ Steamtown. For somebody who has only the vaguest memory of F units, and a rather abrupt end to Alcos as Conrail purged them off the roster in the 70's, I'm thankful for the education and experience gained by working trains with diesel power.

Here, here, superheater!! Steam does impress, but so does diesel power--- when "civilian" gearheads and passengers ask us about the RMNE diesel locos, they are awed by V-16 engines with 567 cubic inches per cylinder, and by the sheer size of the things. And the fact that they are 50-60 years old and still going strong.

Steam, diesel: it's all good, and all useful as a educational tool.

Howard P.

And the primary thing you need to make use of the locomotives (steam and diesel) as teaching tools are people who are willing to share their knowledge and present the facts to the best of their ability and interpret history without bias. We are fortunate that we have many people in this industry, a lot of them volunteers, that are willing to take their time and effort to do that. One of the problems is to retain that group and recruit more people who are interested in participating.

PC