Mr. Wilkins....

Appreciate your well thought out response to this intriguing dilemma facing large collections that have remained outside since the 1970's.... I fully understand that the likelihood of resolving anything on this forum is at best unlikely, given that perhaps none of us might have a direct connection to Cincinnati ( or perhaps someone does ).... however, you and I agree ( I believe ) that the battle in some locations is being lost, against the ravage of weather and age, and sitting on the sides lines, doesn't make it get any better ( or for that matter ) much worse....

Perhaps there is the hope that by asking the question, that one who is involved, who might not have taken a leadership role, may step up, awaken by the outcry, and say, time is now of the essence.... Not being involved in a museum myself, I have always been fascinated by the lack of effort to fund raise at some locations.... I see the results of fund raising at say HVRM who moved a tower last year, with a snazzy web site, with the typical big thermometer with the fund raising goal or goals, frequently updated to show positive results..., and wonder for each piece at say Cincinnati or any other museum that appears on a downward cycle ,why a visible effort on line, in person, in magazines, etc isn't attempted.... However to do nothing, with so much equipment, how do you rationalize how to spend the limited gate revenue you might collect ? Without a huge donor coming in , I see most pieces of equipment in peril. In theory if the Hickory Creek could be rescued, why couldn't the Metropolitan View, or an L&N coach, or for that matter, a wood caboose....It takes vision and effort, that starts in house.....In NJ it was accomplished with Federal or State grant money, given away, and today, the preservation community is better for the restoration of the Hickory Creek...It happens in Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Florida and elsewhere... Why not Cincinnati Ohio ?

In my eyes, if this forum does anything, it might be to make a community of people with a common interest aware of a situation before it turns into a crisis...resulting in the total destruction of a beloved L&N coach, or for that matter, any single piece in that historical collection.... Could I mount a campaign to save a particular car or locomotive there ? Perhaps.....however this would be at the expense of 35 other pieces that weather out another winter, with no windows and no comprehensive master plan....

So Mr. Wilkins ( and others ) , perhaps those within the group in Cincinnati, that accept the conditions in Cincinnati as acceptable, need to feel the outcry.. I can't be the first person to walk the tall weeds and thistle, to find these conditions un-acceptable ?

Finally....for you Mr. Wilkins I provide a bit of your local history.......I am disturbed ( jokingly so ) that living in St. Louis you have no profound connection to Stag Beer, being that it was brewed originally in your backyard in Belleville ... Originally known as Kaiser beer ( after the Willhelm family of German emperors ) but after the Kaiser fall out of favor during WW1, , the Griesedieck Western Brewery (the lager's Belleville-based brewer) sponsored a naming contest. A gentleman named George Wuller came up with "Stag" -- presumably in a fit ingenuity the morning after his bachelor party. For his trouble, Wuller received $25 in gold and, interrupted only by Prohibition, Stag proceeded to blaze a torrid trail of local inebriation that saw it outsell Budweiser and Falstaff. But Stag ceased being concocted in Belleville in 1988 ; it's now brewed on contract in Fort Worth, Texas, by the Miller Brewing Company. I travel great distances to obtain supplies of Stag Beer. ( which has very limited distribution ) . and its the only beer provision used in a NYC dining car I restored last year... I hope you reconsider my open invitation for a 12 pack ( of cans or bottles ) ... A wise gentleman once told me that Stag cans should be consumed during the week, and bottles on weekends ( keep that in mind )

..... and finally,I attach a picture in Cincinnati of perhaps another one of your beloved L&N cars, broken windows and rotting steel included.....

Cheers

Dean Levin

( Stag makes thirst a pleasure )

Mr. Dean, I tip my hat to you as a fellow follower of Stag beer. And I must say that this is the most productive, most interesting and funnest conversation ever held here on the old RYPN Interchange. Perhaps...perhaps world wars, economic problems and even domestic violence could be averted if...all participants would just sit back and enjoy a cool...NAY....a COLD Stag beer!

Here's to you...builder of cars, scraper of paint, welder of sheets...you sand and paint where others...apply only chimney flashing and Bondo-o. We raise our chilled glasses to you...wherever you are...you yard bird!

T7

A note from your moderator. I have noticed that some of the posts in this thread have turned into personal banter. If you find yourself ready to post something directed at a person please don't. Reread the guidelines and/or ask a moderator if you need further clarification. I will lock this topic without further warning if any more personal banter is posted.

I would suggest turning the discussion toward some of the following either here or in a new thread:
Storage of historic railway equipment.
Deciding what is surplus equipment.
How to best dispose of surplus equipment.
How to best display equipment when it is in poor condition.
Best use your given space for display, restoration space, and storage.
Keeping visitors safe while they wander the property.

I see that former New Haven 520 "Race Point" is on their surplus list. Anyone from this museum, or acquainted with the car please PM me with more details.
As for the museum, I wish them good luck on the restoration of their re-focused collection. I would consider providing some sort of survey to gauge what visitors like and what they feel needed improvement. As always, an effort should be made to interpret the collection. In situations where you are dealing with any sort of weather which could be characterized as severe, you need a building. Not only will this aid in the long term- preservation of equipment, but also the restoration of equipment.

Stephen Piwowarski

Well, if you want another model of the "miscellaneous railroad yard where half the stuff is privately owned," go look at the Arizona Railway Museum in Chandler. You can only go from October to April--it's too hot in the extended summer.

http://www.azrymuseum.org/

Three differences:
No weeds--the lot/yard is largely gravel-covered and hard-packed, well enough for a wheelchair. (Being in the desert helps, obviously.)
Adequate room to move about, get photos, drive up with tools, etc.--the yard was purpose-built on an alfalfa field.
Signs--most every piece on display, even the private ones, has a sign explaining what it is, its relevance, etc.

When I met my current girlfriend she had lived in Latonia, KY and could literally see this museum from her front porch. Until I came along she had no idea this was even a museum, but rather a railroad "junk yard" In their defense, up until the late 80's/early 90's the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati, then called the Railway Exposition Company wasn't so much a museum as it was a parking lot for privately owned passenger cars. These cars were regularly leased out for excursions and several were regularly used on NS steam excursions. They also once operated very popular christmas train rides on the property. I'm not sure what happened to all of the serviceable equipment. I know they once had a Milwaukee Road Super Dome that provided 1st class service on many excursions behind the NS steamers and NKP 765. With the shift away from excursions and being "landlocked" their focus has shifted to becoming a museum. In their defense they have done some work. The PRR looks excellent compared to several years ago for example. They also are trying to get rid of equipment and focus on assembling complete trains with an emphasis on Cincinnati railroads instead of a yard full of passenger equipment. However, until they advertise and make their cause known I don't see it happening. If someone living 3 or 4 houses down don't know that their there, how will the rest of the world?

As a father of 3 young boys, I can tell you that they would do a whole lot better with a short train ride. The 65 tonner with a caboose or 2 would generate a fair amount of cash, vs. a static lot. We went to the B&O museum about a year ago. Unfortunately my kids were not terribly impressed by the rotunda and my personal favorite Cass Shay #1. What really made the trip for them was the out and back over the "first mile". It did little for me, other than to enjoy thier smiling faces. This operation in question has some potential here. Even a grade crossing for some horn blowing. Kids love the horn! I hope someone from there gets a chance to read this thread and improve the situation.

Mike Stillwell
Buena Vista, VA.

Come on Tom, don't create problems where none exist, please!

Now on to the idea of short rides through their yard. Not being a common carrier, would the museum have to worry about FRA track inspections to legally haul passengers on their own trackage? What about locomotive inspections?

In regards to the discussion of the New Haven Race Point.... I offer the following.... The Race Point is 1949 Pullman Standard built product, built as a 14 roomette 4 Double Bedroom car for the New Haven. Car was sold by the New Haven in 1969, to the Long Island Railroad and became their car 2066 Matituck. Car ran in Long Island service till retired in 1975 and was resold in 1977 to the Tuman Demolition Company.

Upon recently taking a look at the car.. you have serious deterioration of the structural framing behind the fluting below the window band. The side sheets appear to have area of significant corrosion in areas where the fluting started to pull away from the car body ( below the windows ) , and areas where 100 percent of the window gaskets have dry rotted and failed. It would appear the side sills have rotted in areas allowing the vertical support framing ( exterior structure ) to be attached to very little ( since the sills are rotted in numerous areas ) I believe this car was built with a carbon steel roof, which has areas of significant corrosion to the point where the curve roof sheets show rot enabling water to penetrate interior areas of the car. Compound that with brittle and aged leaking window gaskets, and your problems are substantial.

Add to it, CSX's policy on non rotating end cap bearings, and if this car was to ever leave, it will likely be a flat car candidate ( if you can get a flat car close ) or a very expensive swap out of wheel sets, COT&S, however if CSX doesn't allow a switch, then the crane option is likely the best and only option...

Given the logistics and condition of the car, it would have to be an emotional decision likely for someone with a favorable memory of the New Haven ( and plenty of cash to burn ) to purchase ( or accept as a donation ) , as from a logical point, with plenty of better built Budd 10./6 sleepers available ( compared to a 14/4 ) , it would be questionable logic to invest money in this car given the complex logistics and structural condition. ( just an opinion ) However never say never ?


Dean Levin

"a weed is simply a plant whose virtues we haven’t yet discovered"

Ralph Waldo Emerson

I came across one of the cars, undoubtedly one of the privately owned cars, the C&NW 7600, listed with Ozark Mountain Railcar. With Fafnir bearings; looks like a major project and similar situation to that of NH Race Point. What an all-in-one car that was, though! It would have made a great display car for a small museum when intact: RPO, baggage, tavern/lounge, AND a lunch counter. A little bit of everything, except sleeping accommodations.

There may be others at Cincinnati listed with OMR, too, but C&NW 7600 just happened to be one I looked at and recognized the location from some of the photos.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to, nor money interest in either the car or OMR. I do admit to occasionally drooling over some of the equipment I see posted for sale, though. :>)

Currently drooling over ACL 203 and 210...maybe NYC 448 (I'm not looking at the price!)...and where's that Budd 10-6 again? Keep on dreamin', Stephen...