Please pardon me for a moment while I mop the snarfed coffee out of my keyboard. :-)

If one has $300K to throw away on such an attempt, I would think they likely have the money laying around to buy the locomotive outright, and would probably be inclined to do that, rather than invest in such a scheme.

At the very least, they should have the money to pay for some good lawyers when they realize the blew $300K and have nothing to show for it.

I would guess this one has about as much chance of happening as finding a NYC Hudson stashed away in a barn somewhere.

I was also surprised when I heard how the trust was going to be setup. That being said, I believe they've already been in contact with about 15 interested parties. Maybe it's not such a long shot.

20 x $300k = 6 million dollars, assuming a five percent yield on investments, thats $300K yearly. Take $100k for a maintenance reserve and that's $1.5 million for every Form 4 turnaround. If there's a place to run it (and the railroads might look much more favorably on outfits with this much "skin" in the game) and cars to pull behind it (another trust?).

Could the money go somewhere else? Sure, but I suspect that the money this venture attracts is not money the rest of us will and, if sucessful, leaves us with something akin to a UP steam program or the 261 program. As long as the investments hold up, it should be a self perpetuating enterprise. If he can make it work, more power to him.

Now, to apply such a investment/fundraising mechanism to our projects.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Essentially, this is the approach of a private foundation, which can continue to run long after the principals are gone from this world (though I certainly hope Ross and the others will be around a good while longer).

Based on your numbers, and assuming the 614 and the tool car and auxiliary tank, etc., are worth about $2 million, and also assuming you will need money in about the same ratios for ongoing maintenance of anything (which may be the worst assumption here), this means you may need a fund balance to earn the money of about 3 times whatever your "artifact" is worth. This may not be too big a deal for a relatively small station, but what do you do for something the size of a Steamtown, a Strasburg, or a Railtown? Not everybody will have the resources of a big corporation like Chessie System or CSX to establish a trust like that for the B&O Museum, and even as big as that was, there is reason to believe even that may have come up short for some reason or another.

So, the $6 million dollar question is, how do you raise the $6 million in a culture that too often gives history, especially rail history, "no respect," and especially how do you do this if you are not Ross Rowland, or do not have his apparent natural talent at this?

I know the question has been asked before, but how does one go about determining what a locomotive is worth? Scrap value is a known of sorts, but moving up the scale from that, just what is a locomotive worth?
I'm not sure there is a profitable operation in the country as far as running steam. 1522's operations never made that much because of the money put aside for future maintenance, insurance and the like. These things burn money!
Any sponsoring group for trips had a hard time making much off of them after paying for locomotive "rental", equipment leases and transportation into town, more insurance and countless other hidden items.
I hope their are people out there with the disposable cash to keep these things running. I'm doing well to keep on keepin on with the economy what it is and being retired, I'm certainly not a cash cow for anyone. More like somebody who is full of BS!

Hello, Frisco,

As you noted, the value of a locomotive can vary considerably, and indeed did even in the old days; new brought the highest value, and scrap normally the least. Interestingly, locomotives in this time up to the end of steam were bought and sold by the pound, or at least there was some correlation between the price and weight. This was most obvious at the scrapping end of the scale.

For the purposes of this discussion, I was using an estimate of what it would take take to bring a large engine like 614 to operational status. For this particular job, I was going by recent overhauls for service in the $1 million dollar range, with the value of the auxiliary tender, tool car, and tool car contents (and the cost of bringing those into good order), and of course what would have been essentially scrap value of a similar-sized engine making up the remainder. It was something of a wild guess, and might have even been low based on comparable replacement cost, but it was used primarily to illustrate, based on Mike From Montana's comments, that you would need a certain ratio of fund investment to the value of the "artifact" to establish how much you would need to generate enough income to satisfy the investors in the scheme as mentioned, and also to provide the money for the care of said artifact.

The big advantage of such a scheme is that the real money earning doesn't depend on the artifact itself; as you noted, steam burns money, which is the main reason it was replaced. The artifact doesn't have to earn its way in the brutal world of bottom-line only business, particularly the business world as it is today, where something like this would be considered "frivolous." For this reason, I am pleasantly surprised at NS bringing back steam, and continue to be amazed at the persistence of UP's steam program.

Of course, it's a wonderful bonus when you can make money, but this role often falls to operations that got established when this was much easier, such as the Strasburg and the Durango & Silverton (the latter actually having been established under the Denver & Rio Grande Western). Note how rare genuine, for-profit steam enterprises are outside of those two, and also note how steam operation in some cases can be considered at least semi-expendable, at least partially for money reasons (Grand Canyon Scenic and Mount Washington Cog).

Of course, as is commonly said, "Your mileage may vary."

And also, the $6 million dollar question remains. . .

The idea for the Living History Trust was sparked by my being approached by a very wealthy gentleman who has decided that he wants to add a working mainline steam locomotive to his extensive collection of American artifacts.

His current holdings include the nations largest collection of metal toys ( mostly from the early 1800's-early 1900's), 46 working steam tractors/graders, an extensive collection of American art, 54 live steam engines of various track guages ( some steamable,some not), etc., etc.

From that part of his holdings I have seen my guess is that all together his treasures represent an investment north of 500 million dollars. And what I found incredible was he keeps it all for his and his wifes personal enjoyment and that they never open any of it for public viewing.

I sat with him and discussed the folly of him investing the sums needed to purchase a working mainline steam locomotive ( where will you operate it, who will maintain it, how will you restore it to proper/legal operating status) and from that discussion came the nucleus of the Living History Trust concept.

The basic concept is quite simple.

Provide the vehicle wherein a small number of wealthy steam lovers can acquire a fractional ownership in a mainline engine, have that vehicle do all the things necessary to make its active mainline life feasible ( operating agreement with one or more Class 1's, establish a maintenance base/work force, handle all the insurance and other administrative matters etc.), and thus allow the owners to come out a few days a year and be part of the engine crew and its operation. Very similar in many ways to timeshare ownership of vacation real estate.

It could work. The key questions are;

1. Are there 20-30 like minded sufficiently wealthy Americans out there who would find it sufficiently appealing to be able to "play train" 3/4/5 days/yr. in return for investing $ 300k to be part of this exclusive club??

2. Assuming the answer to # 1 is yes, is there a Class 1 railroad that would want to lease the services of a thoroughly restored mainline steam locomotive(s) for use on its railroad??

If the answers to both the above are in the affirmative then the task is to structure the LHT so that it has sufficient capital to;

A. Pay for the acquisition and restoration of the LHT owned and/or leased locomotives with sufficient capital remaining to fund the long term care of the engines downstream, ( net of the modest lease fee income derived from the Class 1 rr in return for its use by the Class 1).

B. Pay for the establishment of the needed mechanical base and the people to man it.


We think there's a sufficient probability that it could all work that we're giving it serious study and exploration. It may well not happen but then again it just might.

We should have more to report in a few months.

Ross Rowland

At least Ross is willing to try new things. From AFT to Ace 3000 to the Yellow Ribbon Express and now the LHT, he takes action while others sit and stare. That in itself is commendable.

In my opinion you're leaving out #2a:
Is said Class One (or, for that matter, a regional like the former Wisconsin Central) willing to use whatever locomotive is involved with this syndicate? I can just see some CMO rejecting, as an example, the by-now-bastardized Reading 2100 for multiple reasons, and it will matter not how good a sales job the group does, what he says will go. I also don't see UP signing on to use a non-UP loco, or CP using a non-CP loco, and I sort of have to scratch my head a bit at the likes of BNSF agreeing to use, say, a C&O or NYC loco......

There's another factor as well, and I believe you alluded to it in your example of the guy with a lot of "playthings:"

What drives a lot of this kind of activity--and is the primary reason that rail preservation lags FAR behind marine, auto, and even aviation enthusiasm/appreciation--is POSSESSION. I'm reminded of the "Dilbert" cartoon where Elbonia, the land of mud, had a revolution and went capitalistic: Before: signs indicating "mud," "pig," "hut," "tree." After: Each sign has the word "MY" boldly added to it.

The example you gave above exemplifies this point. The person in question has a purportedly massive collection of "toys," yet it's "hidden away" and kept for personal amusement, not for public display or exhibition. In one sense, the guy is a lunatic, but so what? It's still not our business to tell him what to do. As one of my favorite t-shirts/buttons says, "He Who Dies With the Most Toys...... IS DEAD!!!! When's The Estate Auction?!?!?" I am thoroughly convinced that if railroad equipment were only somewhat smaller and didn't need the cooperation of railroads, big movers, and/or zoning regulations to shuttle about and park, there would be many more such "secret stashes" of historic or offbeat rail equipment stashed hither and yon around the continent. There are a couple books out detailing historic autos discovered in barns and garages unopened/untouched for 40 years; we might be lucky to eke out a magazine article on same. Instead, we fulfill our Walter Mitty-like rail fantasies with model railroads, which are seemingly more popular than actual railroad enthusiasm by a 2-to-1 margin.

The fact remains that you can easily own AND OPERATE your own car, your own tractor, your own plane, your own jet, your own yacht, your own ocean liner, your own race team, your own dogsled team, and even with some difficulty your own spaceship. But "owning your own steam locomotive" without concurrently owning the railroad itself--a la the Reading & Northern, Ohio Central, and Iowa Interstate--is just that particular degree of obstacle that will turn off even the most die-hard steam enthusiast.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

Furthermore, one last problem: if C&O 614, a worthy modern and advanced steam loco in its own right, ends up being the subject of this proposed project, there is no way in Hades that the project won't be perceived by a substantial number of folks--including probably some serious decision makers--as a project to "help Rowland pay for his playing engineer." Of course, I do realize that the pool of potential privately-owned or could-be-made-available-for-operation-under-the-right-terms "big steam" is hideously small, even if we include rumors about 1522, etc.

Hey, you know, the Grand Canyon RR had a SP&S steamer sitting around doing not much of anything..........

I sometimes wonder if Mr. Rowland's faults lie not in his ideas, but in that he, in the past, has broken the news, or made pronouncements before everything was firmed up and/or final. Like the announcements of looking for other steam to complement 614 on the GBX, before any sort of approval had been obtained from CSX. It has to cause some embarrassment, and a lot of back-peddling.

Such an approach often opens one up to scrutiny and ridicule, when your pronouncements don't come true, and in this case seems unnecessary. Any investor serious enough about investing $300k into 614 is probably not participating on the RYPN forum. Most potential investors will probably be lined up in a very low-key fashion, meetings, discussions and the like that occur far outside the stream of public information and communication, let alone an internet forum on railway preservation. Why not work quietly, and make your announcement when you have the investors lined up? It would certainly be a way to silence one's critics.

Much like the recent discussion of the owner of B&LE 643, I imagine that Mr. Rowland receives a certain amount of adulation and worship from the railfan community due to his ownership of the C&O 614. The repeated announcements of the return of 614 to service on the 21st Century Limited, the Yellow Ribbon Express, and the Greenbrier Express, were probably part of this desire to keep himself and the 614 in the spotlight and subject to the adulation of certain members of the railfan community. I see no reason to think the current situation is any different. Even as he admits, it might not happen.

One has to admire Mr. Rowland for is never-ending attempts to let 614 see steam again under his ownership. However, like the boy that cried wolf, when Mr. Rowland proclaims "steam" for 614 again and again, one has to wonder if this is just history repeating itself.

I am not trying to be negative, and if it works, I'll congratulate Mr. Rowland. However, while past performance isn't indicative of future results, they can shed light on the potential for success.

This actually sounds very much like the original set-up of the Wolsztyn Experience, as a time-share ownership experience, before it evolved into the current set-up of pay-for-play.

I tend to agree that the biggest limiting factor is where you can operate a 400+ ton beast like 614 at anything near mainline speeds? Perhaps finding an available stretch of currently lightly-used, or unused branch line that could be acquired and brought up to say a 40-49 mph speed limit would be a realistic goal to set? A possible suggestion would be the former Shenandoah Valley branch of the B&O that runs North out of Staunton, VA. I believe that Mr. Showalter's equipment is already stored on that line. You might also be able to work in a program where more of us peons who might be able to afford a week as guest engineer can participate - saves the trans-Atlantic airfare.

I'm hoping that many of you are not suggesting that Ross simply vanishes from the boards and doesn't announce or talk about anything. That in itself would be a travesty, IMHO. I like to hear of his ideas, and it does promote an active discussion, instead of not hearing from people and having only rumors, rumors and more rumors - with a side of hearsay. Keep it coming, Ross!

Michigan. Lots of good track in shortline/regional hands. Steam engines go anywhere they please. NS wants out of the Amtrak/Michigan Central line and the presumptive buyer is MDOT, and it's already a PTC testbed and will probably get PTC within months of purchase. 110 mph work for ya?

But anyway, this group has got it bas-ackwards. Right now the mainline steam community is wildly out of balance - when you look at the places suitable for running, and the number of engines, and the number of COACHES. You know how they say Alco was #3 in a market capable of supporting 2 builders? Or market economics wouldn't support 2 competing rail lines over Tehachapi? That's what you got with steam engines. You've got a glut of ready-to-work steam engines with their tube time ticking away, and not nearly enough work to support any of them, as a result the market is a total lose for all players in it. This group would be far better off fixing one of the other problems for those engines that are all dressed up and nowhere to run.

Oh, and I found particularly amusing the posts that said Ross was all talk. I have heard of the American Freedom Train.

I am beginning to feel this conversation is becoming a spitting contest. Right now the idea of a locomotive partnership is theoretical and Ross Rowland is looking for an acceptable venue in which to operate at least one, if not two or more, of the classiest surviving steam locomotives in railroading. Rather than taking pot-shots at his extensive track record and attempts to bring the locomotives back to steam, I'd opt to wish him the best of luck and get behind his efforts, if only in voice. It irritates the hell out of me to hear a person raise an aspiration or dream, only to have a chorus of people who only see possible problems as insurmountable issues. If you have a better way of raising steam for an eager public, propose it and get backing.