> Another is the reality that for health and
> safety and medical treatment reasons there
> should be limitations as to what juveniles
> may do. Having a parent or guardian on the
> property with the juvenile mitigates some of
> these concerns.

Brian,

Could you clarify some of the concerns? I have yet to encounter any limitations of 11-13 year-old boys short of driving a vehicle or operating a train. Most of us, in the days of common shop classes took Wood or Metal shop as young as 12 years old and learned to operate dangerous machinery with supervision. I believe with proper releases, medical treatment is not a problem. With cell phone technology parents are within a phone call's reach for autorizations and such. Scraping paint can be a problem because of the lead and so is asbestos, but those should be concerns for all ages. I have greater concern for a 60-something retiree slaving away in hot summer weather on a track or plant project than I do young ruffians whose health may be substantially less tenuous. Which have you seen more of in your years, youngster engaging in dangerous activity or adults do the same? Take it from someone who engages 11 different kids at our place in any number of projects from simple cleaning to grading, please don't perpetuate the myth that youngsters may be more tenuous or unsafe than their older counterparts while supervised.



wyld@sbcglobal.net

Well said. The volunteers can pick up the marbles and leave. In a fashion, tailoring a groups operations to appeal to volunteers rates nearly as high as bringing the paying customers in the front door.

For groups near larger urban areas with strong cultural activities, the competition for volunteers is fierce, and retention of them even more so. If your group cannot demonstrate some measure of perceived value you will soon lose members and volunteers.

The young are not the only ones seeking a program with a plan and organization, I am in two groups (an NRHS chapter and local model railroad club). The NRHS chapter is doing well because the officers are able to provide perceived value in the form of ongoing projects, regular communication (newsletter) and occasional perks (train rides). The model railroad club is hanging in the wind because the leadership isn't providing a clearly defined direction (right or wrong), possbily because they want to be a "social" club, little communication, no ongoing projects.

Remember, sell to your membership and volunteers with every bit of gusto that you use with visitors, because without them...well who will care?

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

> Without throwing any stones, the last
> volunteer that left our group asked me to
> remind the "warmongers" that the
> group needed volunteers, the volunteers did
> not need the group! Unfortunately people
> riding an obsession are usually not people
> persons.


mikefrommontana@juno.com

We are not helped by what seem to be (and probably are) the intentions of most major railroads to isolate themselves from any interactions with the public in general, and often railfans in particular. This almost pathological fear of having the public anywhere near the property seems tracible to the Sunset Limited swamp wreck of 1993, which left 47 passengers and crew dead and opened Amtrak and CSX up to the possibility of massive liability costs. It effectively ended the excursion era East of the Mississippi, and makes it hard for enthusiasts to pursue the hobby looking over their shoulders for the railroad dicks. Combine that with what I have found to be a decidedly hostile attitude among many freight railroaders I work with in the Northeast towards fans, and you really have to be dedicated anymore to want to be in the hobby.

Second, for those who decry tax money spent on Amtrak, just remember that you may have become a railfan from having ridden trains as a child, I know I did. If the experience of being able to ride trains as an everyday event is lost to the majority of the public, and the railroads manage to keep making themselves less and less visable, then it will be no suprise that young people will care less and less about trains and their preservation.

The good news is that a Gallup Poll taken a couple of weeks ago shows that 72% of Americans say that there should be an Amtrak, truly a remarkable show of support, and evidence that there still is an undercurrent of support for railroads and rail transit.

pww57@hotmail.com

> Brian,

> Could you clarify some of the concerns? I
> have yet to encounter any limitations of
> 11-13 year-old boys short of driving a
> vehicle or operating a train. Most of us, in
> the days of common shop classes took Wood or
> Metal shop as young as 12 years old and
> learned to operate dangerous machinery with
> supervision. I believe with proper releases,
> medical treatment is not a problem. With
> cell phone technology parents are within a
> phone call's reach for autorizations and
> such. Scraping paint can be a problem
> because of the lead and so is asbestos, but
> those should be concerns for all ages. I
> have greater concern for a 60-something
> retiree slaving away in hot summer weather
> on a track or plant project than I do young
> ruffians whose health may be substantially
> less tenuous. Which have you seen more of in
> your years, youngster engaging in dangerous
> activity or adults do the same? Take it from
> someone who engages 11 different kids at our
> place in any number of projects from simple
> cleaning to grading, please don't perpetuate
> the myth that youngsters may be more tenuous
> or unsafe than their older counterparts
> while supervised.

I have to agree with your points.

Jobs must be matched to abilities. And supervision is needed. And that is what went on in the shop classes we both attended.

There are legal restrictions of how a business can employee a youth. And these can vary from state to state. We once had a community summer youth program and the participants could not do any job that involved a power tool. I have read a story about teenagers at British railway museums and it noted that these dedicated young people were limited by their health and safety laws or regulations from using power tools. What regulations -- that we don't know about -- would limit the use of minors?

The elder member needs to we watched just as much as the young member. Be it heat, a heart attach, etc. there are concerns that way.

An then there are the rest of us. I spent a couple of hours this Saturday on the ground, watching or doing some weed abaitment, while another volunteer was working up a 16-foot ladder. I felt that, just in case, someone needed to be near by. Additionally, I did help set and break-down the project.

Brian Norden


bnorden49@earthlink.net

> Brian,

> Could you clarify some of the concerns? I
> have yet to encounter any limitations of
> 11-13 year-old boys short of driving a
> vehicle or operating a train.

I just heard something the other day about teens and occupational dangers. My guess is that'll be some new government initiative.

Don't state and federal labor departments regulate what can be done in industrial settings? How about OSHA and the FRA?

In any case, releases aren't very effective for adults, much less minors.

I am a PROUD two time attendee of RailCamp (Basic Session II in '99, inaugural Advanced in '00) and know of several fellow attendees and myself whom it has affected. After attending in 1999, I decided to help out several Saturdays in the summer of 2000 at my NRHS chapter's station project. One is editor of Railpace's Teen Scene column, one works in the northern NJ shared assets area, another works at Strasburg, another is taking locomotive engineer courses in KC, plus others have also joined/become active in their local NRHS chapters/RR historical/preservation groups. I've gotten similar comments promoting my chapter's RailCamp scholarship about how good an idea it is and from others how they wish they could've done something like this in their youth. I'm glad to see others here who appreciate and support it (hopefully Don Philips will join this group sometime, unless he's changed his thoughts from his Jan. 2001 and summertime (May or June) 2000 columns mentioning this issue of youth involvement in railfanning/rail preservation). Some other things I know about are:
-a youth volunteer program at Spencer Hayes is helping to start at the NCTM
-the Rochester Chapter NRHS actually sponsors a Boy Scout Explorer post with several active members who help at their museum
-TRAINS Magazine and the NRHS are sponsoring a Youth Photo Workshop in the Chicago/Illinois area this month (I think it's this month).
-In 1998 and 2000 the NRHS convention included a teen seminar (only 4-8 participants though), and the ARM/TRAIN 2001 convention included a presentation by Angel and Hayes
These efforts I think are only a start though, but may form a foundation for things to expand in the future (ie perhaps a second or third RailCamp(s) held in other parts of the country; more groups offering teen/youth-oriented seminar/events at their respective national conventions/meetings, more local groups/museums trying to start youth volunteer programs).

JBeutel611@aol.com

>This almost
> pathological fear of having the public
> anywhere near the property seems tracible to
> the Sunset Limited swamp wreck of 1993,
> which left 47 passengers and crew dead and
> opened Amtrak and CSX up to the possibility
> of massive liability costs.

No, to the REALITY of such suits. CSX has been forced to pay out tens of millions so far, with more suits still to be settled or to go to court.
NS paid out millions on the Dismal Swamp wreck, too.

> The good news is that a Gallup Poll taken a
> couple of weeks ago shows that 72% of
> Americans say that there should be an
> Amtrak, truly a remarkable show of support,
> and evidence that there still is an
> undercurrent of support for railroads and
> rail transit.

Except for one cold, hard fact: Only 0.3% of all travel is by train. Much more of that 72% needs to actually ride the trains if anyone is to take their "support" seriously.

Off topic, I know.

Gary, you are certainly doing your part by working with Operation Lifesaver. However, almost the entire thrust of railroad PR seems to be about how dangerous railroads are to their neighbors. We in the museum field tell the story of what railroads DID for our grandparents, UP is providing a bright spot with their "Building America" ad campaign but today's railroad story is too gigantic a story to be told in a 30-second TV spot. Railroad Museums can step in here to fill a void. Railroad history did not end when the last steam fire was dropped. The likes of BNSF, UP, NS and CSX continue to write it every day. In light of the fact that our industry faces unprecedented financial difficulties, we should be working closely with railroad PR departments to tell the MODERN railroad story to our visitors using our artifacts and with support and specialized teaching aids provided by the railroads. In this way we can adapt to the changing financial situation we are faced with by taking somewhat increased direction from an industry that we believe in anyway.

jjbx@twcny.rr.com