I work in the engineering field and fire protection is part of what I do (automatic sprinklers, etc.). How many railway museums have some form of fixed fire protection installed? Protecting equipment stored in some type of structure? A special system to protect archives? Your input is appreciated.

tmanz@afo.net

The nearly new Visitor Center at the Western Railway Museum is out in the country, covered by volunteer Fire Departments. That so, the building is almost all fireproof materiels, Hardly any wood.

Planning is in the works for a pond to contain enough water to supply a Diesel powered fire pumping system. The next car barn is planned to have a dry pipe system built into it. Fire awairness is growing at the museum.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

> I work in the engineering field and fire
> protection is part of what I do (automatic
> sprinklers, etc.). How many railway museums
> have some form of fixed fire protection
> installed? Protecting equipment stored in
> some type of structure? A special system to
> protect archives? Your input is appreciated.

Excellent question. In my experience, not many. While I imagine Steamtown has the best our tax money can buy, most museums have to stretch to put up a building at all. We just put fire extinguishers at all the exits, cross our fingers, and hope whoever starts the fire can put it out, I guess.

So if you do this for a living, let me ask you for a quote. I want some sort of automatic fire suppression system for a pole barn with wooden posts and trusses, and sheet metal skin. The barn is full of firewood on steel wheels. Let's say it has four tracks and is 60' wide and 400' long. The building is not insulated or heated, so temperatures can fall to at least 20 below, and anything near the roof will get well over 100 when the sun is beating down.

What kind of system could we get, and roughly how much would you expect it to cost?

Randall "One fire was one too many" Hicks

While a dry pipe, water dispensing fire suppression system should be no problem where it doesn't freeze, how is one designed where it gets cold? I suspect with some sort of electric valve (located well below frost level) that might be triggered by heat sensors where the artifacts are located?

Ted, how are your Maritime Museum ships protected?

> The nearly new Visitor Center at the Western
> Railway Museum is out in the country,
> covered by volunteer Fire Departments. That
> so, the building is almost all fireproof
> materiels, Hardly any wood.

> Planning is in the works for a pond to
> contain enough water to supply a Diesel
> powered fire pumping system. The next car
> barn is planned to have a dry pipe system
> built into it. Fire awairness is growing at
> the museum.

> Ted Miles


ryarger@rypn.org

It's my limited experience that in automatic sprinkler systems there's a good bit of air before you get to water. I believe that in a dry pipe system, there's no water at all until the fire department pumps it in. Perhaps Thomas Manz can shed more light on that. The shop at the Museuim of Transport in St. Louis has an automatic sprinkler system installed, and I don't believe that it's heated.
Sincerely,
David Ackerman

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

There is a valve in a dry pipe system right at ground level. The system is pressurized, and when a fire melts the fusible link in the sprinkler head the air exhausts, the check valve opens and water floods the sprinkler system. The water then flows out of said sprinkler head and onto the fire. At least that is how I always thought such a system works. Might be completely wrong though.


todengine@woh.rr.com

Orange Empire Ry Museum has one building equiped with sprinklers at this time. It is the multi-purpose Grizzly Flats Enginehouse building. The building is used not only for exhibiting the donations of Ward and Betty Kimball but also for meetings, diners, receptions, etc.

The goal is to have all buildings sprinklered. At this time there is a private on-site 8" dia. distribution with a number of fire hdyrants.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

> I work in the engineering field and fire
> protection is part of what I do (automatic
> sprinklers, etc.). How many railway museums
> have some form of fixed fire protection
> installed? Protecting equipment stored in
> some type of structure? A special system to
> protect archives? Your input is appreciated.

I have in the past been a member of the Society of California Archivists. While a member, there were a number of presentations on fire and disaster protection in archive facilities. Several points from these presentations:

1. Water damamges documents.

2. Better to have a limited amount of water damage than to have the fire burn all the stuff or have the fire dept. blast everything off the shelves and lay waste to it.

3. Use bi-metal thermo controled sprinker heads. These are the kind that respond to heat and only the ones required go off (not the entire building). Then when the heat (fire) goes away the heads shut off; and if the fire flares back up the appropriate head(s) will open.

4. Story of a test of a haleon system using compressed air: the blast of air blew boxes off of shelves and even tore a picture. Recommendation: set up haleon ports and artifacts in such a way that damage is not done.

5. If you have fire or water damange it helps if you have the name and phone numbers of damage recovery service providers. Firms that have the equipment and experience to do the clean up work. Firms that freeze dry the books and paper items to remove the water.

6. Review #5 -- this applies to flood damage also.

This is just what I remember at the moment.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

> There is a valve in a dry pipe system right
> at ground level. The system is pressurized,
> and when a fire melts the fusible link in
> the sprinkler head the air exhausts, the
> check valve opens and water floods the
> sprinkler system. The water then flows out
> of said sprinkler head and onto the fire. At
> least that is how I always thought such a
> system works. Might be completely wrong
> though.

Yup, that's basically how a dry pipe fire sprinkler system functions. I'm an industrial maintenance tech and have been responsible for two such systems for a number of years. The "dry valve" is located at the base of the system riser, typically in a heated space. All of the system piping back to the dry valve is pressurized with air (typically at 30-45 psi). The dry valve is a flapper device with the air (and a small cushion of water) on one side and a source of water on the other. As Rick said, when the air bleeds off from a triggered head(s), the dry valve trips and water flows into the system. Our systems cover 24,000 sq ft each and are fed off 6 inch fire lines from city water, typically at 70-90 psi. During testing it takes around 25-30 seconds for water to reach the further most location in the systems where the inspector test valves are located. All systems will have an exterior Fire Department Connection (FDC) to allow the fire dept to pump water into the system as needed.

The cost? Back in 1994 it worked out to be around $3.50 per sq ft. This included all underground fire line work. Of course the costs rise a great deal if you have to start adding things like fire pumps, storage tanks, etc.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Bob,

The Maritime Park has smoke detectors aboard everything. The largest wooden boat is the ferry EUREKA, she has a wet pipe system with Diesel pumping backup if the electricity goes off and salt water back up if the water pressure goes down.

Funding has been requested for other ships. However human eyes are the best fire watch. A volunteer put out an electrical fire on Balclutha a couple of years ago.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

> I want some sort of
> automatic fire suppression system for a pole
> barn with wooden posts and trusses, and
> sheet metal skin. The barn is full of
> firewood on steel wheels. Let's say it has
> four tracks and is 60' wide and 400' long.
> The building is not insulated or heated, so
> temperatures can fall to at least 20 below,
> and anything near the roof will get well
> over 100 when the sun is beating down.

> What kind of system could we get, and
> roughly how much would you expect it to
> cost?

For a 24,000 square foot pole barn, a dry-pipe automatic sprinkler system would be your best bet. This will still require a minimum of 300 gallons per minute of water at a minimum pressure of 25 psig. 300 gpm is a a lot of water for a 4-inch main - a 6-inch water supply to the building would be best. Assuming you have the water available, a dry-pipe system would run maybe $4.00 per square foot, or $96,000. This can vary depending on local labor conditions and other factors. You would need one insulated, heated room roughly 8-feet square for the dry pipe valve. A small electric heater could handle that. This assumes that the barn is for storage and repair of rail vehicles. Storage of paint, solvents, fuel, lubricants, stacked lumber or other palletized or rack-type storage should be segregated.

This is a snapshot of what you might encounter in a typical large unheated building. I hope it's helpful.


tmanz@afo.net

> I have in the past been a member of the
> Society of California Archivists. While a
> member, there were a number of presentations
> on fire and disaster protection in archive
> facilities. Several points from these
> presentations:

> 1. Water damamges documents.

> 2. Better to have a limited amount of water
> damage than to have the fire burn all the
> stuff or have the fire dept. blast
> everything off the shelves and lay waste to
> it.

> 3. Use bi-metal thermo controled sprinker
> heads. These are the kind that respond to
> heat and only the ones required go off (not
> the entire building). Then when the heat
> (fire) goes away the heads shut off; and if
> the fire flares back up the appropriate
> head(s) will open.

> 4. Story of a test of a haleon system using
> compressed air: the blast of air blew boxes
> off of shelves and even tore a picture.
> Recommendation: set up haleon ports and
> artifacts in such a way that damage is not
> done.

Brian - your Comment 2 is right-on about fire being the real enemy, not water. Comment 3 reflects a common misconception about automatic sprinklers, perpetuated mainly by our friends in Hollywood. When one sprinkler is activated by a fire, only that sprinkler operates and not every sprinkler in the building. Most fires in sprinklered buildings are brought under control by only 2 sprinklers. However, they will continue to operate until the fire department arrives to turn off the water. As you stated, there is a proprietary (costly) sprinkler system that will shut itself off when it no longer senses heat.

The newest technology for protecting sensitive areas is a water-mist system. It knocks down a fire with a fine aerosol of water rather than water droplets, minimizing the volume of water (and cleanup) required.

tmanz@afo.net

Thank's to the both of you. My appologies for my mistake.
Sincerely,
David Ackerman


david_ackerman@yahoo.com

> .... Assuming you have the water available,
> a dry-pipe system would run maybe $4.00 per
> square foot, or $96,000....

> This is a snapshot of what you might
> encounter in a typical large unheated
> building. I hope it's helpful.

Thanks. That's what I was afraid of - the sprinkler system is nearly as costly as the building itself. Then we need a water supply, but I suppose a tank car buried below the frost line would do. At 300 gpm, 10,000 gallons would last about a half hour, which seems plenty.

On the other hand, since we have several such barns to protect, maybe it would be more cost-effective to hire a night watchman?

Thank you for your comments and current information. I was working from memory and what stuck in my mind from the presentations.

Brian


bnorden49@earthlink.net