"THIS SITE IS DEDICATED TO PRESERVING LOCOMOTIVES."

Where did you get that idea? I think "this site" is dedicated to discussion of the many various aspects of railroad preservation, including but not limited to, locomotive preservation.

"each member on the site donated just $10 to a project such as this"

Just how many people do you think are "here"? And what makes you think ALL of them would be interested in what some of them describe as "diseasels"?

Discussions like this are NOT productive; denying reality is foolish at best. Learn this now: not everything can be saved, or should be saved. The list of "stuff" that has already been acquired by all the various preservation groups is vast, and it all needs work now. "More"? We need "more?" What we need is "more" resources: money, personnel, buildings. Not a clapped-out leaser SD45 (and modified at that).

Sheesh.

Howard P.
Get Real, CT

Howard,

Well said!

Scott

yes..but..GP38's and SD40-2's are in demand..are SD45's? probably not so much..
its not really a fair comparison..



Thats pretty rude..sure, maybe his plan isnt totally realistic, but every preservation project has to start somewhere..I dont see any reason to put the kid down.
personally I would love to see a PRR SD45 preserved! I say, keep working at it!
just because some people tell you "its impossible, your idea is stupid, give up" doesn't mean they are right..

Scot

Call it tough love, Scot. I've worn out dozens and dozens of steel plates banging my head against various walls in the Preservation Asylum during the last 41 years. I absolutely encourage "the kids" (ask around at our place and you'll know that), but also want to teach them to pick their battles.

Just another old fart trying to offer some wisdom,

Howard P.
Fossil, NY

Would you explain what you would have to contribute to this site? so we should stop preserving locomotives that have been gone and ignore anything else?.

To the instrested parties, I present my plan for the SD45.

First, we outline what still survives and what condition, etc. and determine the candidates that can be aqquired and sent to where it needs to be sent.Secondly,we get a 501(c) nonprofit going. it may take a year to get done, but thats what would be needed. Third is raise funds, spread awareness, and apply for a goverment grant. Fourth and final, we find a museum willing to take it and do a lease agreement of some sort. My idea is we paint the locomotive then send it off to be leased and displayed.(Altoona anyone?)

Alternatively, We can find a short line willing to run the locomotive, and run a lease structure where they run it in revenue service while leasing it.

Ideas, suggestions,etc. would be appreciated to build on this.

I'd like to remind our new poster of the Interchange Guidelines. When you registered, you indicated that you read and understand them. Asking Mr. Pincus to "put up or shut up" is a violation of those guidelines.

If you are in high school, as you previously stated, Mr. Pincus has been involved in railway preservation probably more than twice the time you have been alive. He does encourage younger people to get involved, but his outlook is tempered by years of hard-won experience. Don't discount him.



To be fair, this is only a bare bones plan. Why don't you go volunteer with an existing organization to see "how the sausage is made" with regard to preservation? If PRR centric second generation diesels are your passion, then get involved with a PRR centric organization. Why re-invent the wheel with your own non-profit when you can work with an existing organization? You can do far more with your hands, on site than you can with your keyboard.

In previous posts, you indicate that in the "down economy" getting enough money donated to buy one of the aforementioned locomotives is not feasible, so donation by an owner is the only route. Why do you expect a business or bank in this very same down economy to cough up an asset like that, that at the very least is worth its value in spare parts and scrap metal? I'm not trying to put you down, but just trying to help inject a dose of reality into the situation.

Your enthusiasm should be commended, but berating your elders, the very ones who could provide you with real, solid advice on how to achieve your goals, is not the way to go about things.

David Wilkins
The PRR really came to St. Louis?, Missouri

What does Howard Pincus have to offer to this site?

He has, to my knowledge, been part of the efforts to bring NKP 759 and AFT 1 to the main line rails, in addition to his part in various Northeastern/New England preservation projects such as the Naugatuck RR. Is that enough for you?

Now, my qualifications: I have been a member of a locomotive-owning group in the UK, owning first two 3300-hp passenger locomotives since mid-1982, and then after 1985 a third such locomotive. I've been a Life Member since 1991. In addition, I've been an active volunteer with at least one U.S. rail preservation project since 1982. The work has varied from hands-on rust-grinding to writing and photography to fundraising to shoveling coal/wood into the firebox to laying rail to sorting the archives.

Now, let's look at your proposal realistically:



I'm going to answer this in a manner cynically realistic.

Among your proposals is getting a short line to find a use for what is obviously a trouble-prone 20-cylinder diesel engine with 3600 hp, an appetite for fuel, no AC in the cab, and 1960's fuel and emissions technology. That ain't gonna fly with any railroad but the likes of the Utah Railway, Wisconsin Central, etc. Oh, guess what, they're not running these beasts any more. I wonder why.

Now, you then want to fish among the SD45 fans for support. What happens when the EL fans want the loco painted EL, the SP fans want the loco painted SP, the N&W fans want it N&W, the SR fans want a high short hood and SR colors, the UP fans want it UP, the PRR fans want it PRR, the CR fans want it blue, etc.? What if the SP fans outnumber your PRR clique? Let's not mention the NYS&W fans, okay?

You're also putting a cart before the horse. "[F]ind a museum willing to take it and do a lease agreement of some sort"? That excludes a great many museums out there, including the NC Transportation Museum, the RR Museum of Pa., the Va. Transportation Museum, etc. They own it, or no dice. The "lease" arrangement works if you have expendable horsepower you can wear out, not a relic in and of itself.

20 cylinders and 3600 hp is fuel-hungry and maintenance-heavy. There are VERY few short lines or switching lines that can use 3600 HP. MUCH more cost-effective to use a couple switchers, unless you're building a mine-to-river coal barge line. Now, let's discuss who pays for what if something wears out. Where do you find a 20-cylinder crankshaft? In the junk pile, where it belongs after warping and bending out of useful shape. What do you do when the piston "puts a leg out of bed"? Who pays for the new cylinders or liners?

You will find fellow masochists eagerly willing to help you with the costs of a 1,000-2,500 hp locomotive. See SMS Services, Relco, or any number of short lines. Break 2,500 hp, and you need a REALLY good reason. See the Grand Canyon RR and their 3000-hp F40PH's. Break 3,000 hp? You need the main line and high speed. See Bennett Levin and the two PRR E8's. See the Deltic Preservation Society (and another privately held duo of Deltics).

Just to correct the record, I had no involvement with getting NKP 759 or AFT 1 onto mainline rails (or anywhere else). That achievement belongs to Ross Rowland.

I have done a few other things, some of them involving preserving and restoring a few diesel locomotives.

Howard P.

I don't think the 20-645 was particularly troublesome after the redesign of the crankshaft supports and reworking of existing crankcases that were cycled back through EMD. But an expensive way to get 3600 HP, certainly.

I don't know if any still see use in the stationary / marine etc. field. But so many components of both the engine and the rest of the locomotive are common to other models which which is great if you are trying to maintain one but will drive up the value of one you might want to preserve to well above the scrap metal value.

Steve

This could be a good technical argument over the merits or flaws of the 20-645, but Sandy's point is well taken - you could spend whatever money to buy and restore an SD45 and have something fairly routine happen and end up with a $10,000 (or more) repair bill - then what?

My issue with the current batch of newbie "ideas" is the naivety over the biggest issue all preservation efforts face - raising money. Whether it's the everyone here can give $10, or the "we'll get a government grant" (the image of that infomercial guy in the green question mark outfit comes to mind), there is a real detachment from the realities of the money a project will take and how to get it. One of the big reasons I visit RYPN is to see how other people have raised money. There isn't a day that goes by that I am not thinking of news ways to do it or talking to potential donors or courting grant givers or encouraging existing members to give. I see way too much of the put a jar at the door and see what happens approach and I know how much stuff is already owned by groups out there that will end up being scrapped yet more is being "saved" with no clue on where the money will come from.

It's all neat when its out there waiting to be "saved". The charm is lost when it is sitting somewhere rusting with parts missing and after a visit from your friendly neighborhood copper thief.

I think it's important, at this point, to tell cood101 that he shouldn't take all of this to get discouraged about preservation activities, but that, like anything, success comes through putting the time in to learn the ropes.

I've had to learn much of it from scratch, but luckily (mostly) lurking here has taught me a lot about the ins and outs of the activity, but there is always much more to learn, so, young man (I never thought I'd be saying that...), stick around, learn from the "pros", and be eager, but learn to operate in reality.

Also, find a group that does something similar to what you want to do (successfully... don't google "F40ph"...), and volunteer with them.

Too many people get beat off with a stick sometimes, let alone all the viewers that look at this that never post. So lets consider a couple things here.

1) A preserved/surviving SD-45, or even a 645-20, is not unique. IRM has their stuff, the ex-ATSF FP45's are well documented. My personal favorite is EL 3607 at St. Louis. As a closet E-L fan that's wonderful. Nothing against PRR.

2) IRM is working already on donations for WC 7525: http://www3.irm.org/store/index.php?mai ... ducts_id=5
and God Bless them Everyone!

3) I agree that the ranks are getting darn thin of surviving ex-rebuilt SD45's, and as an ATSF fan, yeah, that dates me as they were the power of the 70's. Because they can be economically rebuilt as essentially an SD40 with 2000hp, nobody is going to give them away, even if they look like SD45's on the surface.

What makes these beasts unique and genuinely historic is that 645-20, for sure. I live not far from National Forge (now Ellwood National Forge) and worked there 1979-1983. I'll never forget the sight of the HUGE 20-throw cranks being driven around the shop, teetering on forklift forks. I was in the polishing room watching those 20-throws rotate on the machines, and it's just hypnotic when you can SEE anything that big spinning. National Forge took out advertising, even in TRAINS magazine (check July 1972) celebrating the 20-throw crank and what it did for EMD and horsepower during that era. I do think, particularly in Pennsylvania, a case can be made for historic preservation of that technology, and remember that the company that 'did it' is still very much in the crankshaft business. Hint: these guys have made other recent historic donations to a local railroad museum, not impossible!

So given that, just give up? No. Figure out how to appropriately preserve and celebrate the technology other than just the sheet metal? Heck, don't let us slow you down. The only thing I will say is that a preservation plan that uses the units as 'live power' probably won't fly, but I would LOVE to see a cut-down 645-block with a 20-throw crank in it as a display, in the RR Museum of PA or anyplace else for that matter. I don't think you need a new organization to do it, and I think there are lots of concepts to be explored, keep thinking, and see if another oorganization can use a concept and plan.

"So given that, just give up? No. Figure out how to appropriately preserve and celebrate the technology other than just the sheet metal? Heck, don't let us slow you down. The only thing I will say is that a preservation plan that uses the units as 'live power' probably won't fly, but I would LOVE to see a cut-down 645-block with a 20-throw crank in it as a display, in the RR Museum of PA or anyplace else for that matter. I don't think you need a new organization to do it, and I think there are lots of concepts to be explored, keep thinking, and see if another oorganization can use a concept and plan."


NOW you're talking!!!! Or firing on all 20 cylinders! Great idea: imagine that cutaway with the crank slowly rotating under spotlights on the museum display floor next to the GP30.

Howard P.

Ok, if anything I think that we should preserve it as just a static display. The Railroad Museum of PA doesn't run anything anyway so there is no point in putting a fully functional locomotive into the museum.

My revision stands as getting a 16-645 repowered engine and getting rid of all the parts that are reusable,keep all cab controls in place, and finally getting this as a static-display ONLY.

If you check RRMPA on the roster, here's a 500-lb hint on how it was accomplished:

"1963 Conrail No. 2233 GM-EMD GP-30 RR98.35 PRR Class EF22 No. 2233. Gift 3/1998 of Julia Sanders. Serviceable.
Restored 6/2002 by Norfolk Southern to 1976 Conrail appearance."

That is a signature unit, and it's actually proven to be pretty popular, Conrail blue and all. If we were talking GP30 instead of SD45, the answer would be 'done that'. I'll tell you, I didn't honestly know it was considered "serviceable" and I've leaned on it myself.

I'm posting this primarily as an object lesson on 'where to start'. 1) Look up every comparable unit you can find in every railroad museum, and find out just how the heck it was done. 2) You'd be amazed how many people are in this forum that either know the principals, actually participated in it, or can offer solid advice based on lube oil up to the armpits and paint chips everywhere. (listen) 3) analyze, objectively, whether or not one more piece of 'big iron' is justified in the larger plan of things, because most railroad museums are already blessed with more than they can either ever restore or handle. 4) Six are listed to be preserved already (and 3 "operational") , so #7 needs a good reason.

So you need a compelling case, seriously, to round up either moral or financial support for anything 'more'. And patience. Many of us have gotten a lot older pushing projects.

But, that's what makes this forum a special place, and like I'm reminding everybody, let's not beat him away with skepticism! Look at all that has ACTUALLY HAPPENED with the folks that are represented here. Miracles have become fact every year. It's what keeps us collectively from walking away out of pure frustration.

I'm of the generation that thinks the SD45 was special, and while our backs are turned, becoming genuine 'history' (50 year anniversary since first production starts in December 2015 - four years!). I also think that beyond paint, there's a solid historical link to Pennsylvania here beyond ownership. Nothing against steam, I love it as well. But it was a landmark locomotive, I think we can agree on that. Figuring out what to do about it..realistically..... welll.... keep talking....