This past weekend I was doing some research at a freinds house for my book on the surviving steam locomotives of the Minnesota Iron Range. Anyway, this friend managed to save from the dumpster a few files from the Northern Pacific Railway, including copies of those files regarding the railroads donated steam locomotives. I was very suprised to find that the Musuem of Transportation was selected by the NP (out of several rail musuems) to recive one of their Z-8 class Challengers. It was even ordered cleaned and painted by NP management in St. Paul for donation to the musuem "sometime in 1957." After that there are a few letters that reveal it was scrapped instead; ordered to the torch by someone at middle management. Reading on, upper management was very angry that this had occured and the person that ordered the scrapping was demoted (to what, I don't know) I wonder if the MOT knows what they came so close to having?

There are also some files with letters from John Roberts about obtaining one of the NPs class T 2-6-2s for display at the MOT, but these come a few years after the Z-8 episode.

What we lost!

Jeff Terry

I was once told, though I've never been able to confirm it, that an NP Mikado lasted into the early 70's hidden in a yard somewhere by railroad employees who were trying to save it. They supposedly kept it surrounded by freight cars to keep it out of sight, until some BN exec happened across it one day and ordered it scrapped. If there's any truth to that story it's particularly sad since the NP was one of the earliest US roads to use Mikados and didn't bother to save a single one, though the SP&S did at least save one of their ex-NP hand-me-down W-3's. Hmm, now that I think about it, wasn't there a similar story about a B&O EM-1?

rjenkins@railfan.net

The "almost saved" that about dropped me out of my chair was the mention by Ms. Butterworth, in her article on RYPN, that MOT apparently turned down a Hiawatha Class A Atlantic back in the early 50's.

*ouch*

But then, I do bleed orange.....


milw104c@charter.net

This is the first time I have ever seen reference to documents that back up one of these bitter-sweet stories. Still, everyone loves to hear about steam locomotives that almost got preserved, since it feeds the dream that somewhere out there are several classic locomotives tucked out of sight in an abandoned steelmill.

Hiawatha's, NYC Hudsons, PRR J's and T's - just a few of those that should have been saved. We owe it the memories of these fine locomotives to restore and preserve those locos that did escape.


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

It is sad the NP did not save one of these babies but all in all we are fortunate for what we have. Remember that the railroads that set aside locomotives did so while under pressure to make a profit. And some like the NYC were under too much pressure to make a profit and left nothing.

Also while there are a lot of great ones that got away, we still have some very fine locomotives preserved all over the world. One thing to remember is that for ever classy streamliner the NYC owned there were a thousand 2-8-0 and 0-6-0 types out there. While we might like to see a streamlined hudson in our favorite museum the 2-8-0 or 0-6-0 that is on display is a much better example of real railroading in the day of steam.

Tom Gears


Forgotten Delaware
tgears1@comcast.net

Something that did survive thanks to the cunning of some individuals was the Nevada Northern 4-6-0 #40 and as wood sided RPO and Pullman coach. I was told that during the '30s &'40s whenever Kennecott brass would come out to Ely from the East they would send the #40 up to a out-of-the-way location at the pit. Later, of course, in the '50s the company embraced the engine and cars as a historical corporate symbol. That's a good story anyway...

rn1@trainorders.com

> This past weekend I was doing some research
> at a freinds house for my book on the
> surviving steam locomotives of the Minnesota
> Iron Range. Anyway, this friend managed to
> save from the dumpster a few files from the
> Northern Pacific Railway, including copies
> of those files regarding the railroads
> donated steam locomotives. I was very
> suprised to find that the Musuem of
> Transportation was selected by the NP (out
> of several rail musuems) to recive one of
> their Z-8 class Challengers. It was even
> ordered cleaned and painted by NP management
> in St. Paul for donation to the musuem
> "sometime in 1957." After that
> there are a few letters that reveal it was
> scrapped instead; ordered to the torch by
> someone at middle management. Reading on,
> upper management was very angry that this
> had occured and the person that ordered the
> scrapping was demoted (to what, I don't
> know) I wonder if the MOT knows what they
> came so close to having?

> There are also some files with letters from
> John Roberts about obtaining one of the NPs
> class T 2-6-2s for display at the MOT, but
> these come a few years after the Z-8
> episode.

> What we lost!

> Jeff Terry

Jeff: A very interesting story! Wonder what the time frame was on the letters revealing that the 4-6-6-4 was scrapped instead of being saved. Also, what the date of the letter from Mr. Roberts on the T class 2-6-2 Prairie. From MoT's point of view, a Challenger is missing from their apparent "one of each type wheel arrangements policy" as is (more importantly), a 2-6-2.

Curious though why the NP would pick a 4-6-6-4 for preservation (although they certainly were handsome locomotives) over their Z-5 class 2-8-8-4's, a wheel arrangement that the Northern Pacific pioneered. Perhaps all of the Yellowstones were gone by 1957. Also curious is why the NP never saved one of their 4-8-4 Northerns; another type that the railroad pioneered (fortunately SP&S 700, basically an NP A-3 class Northern, WAS preserved.) Interesting that Mr. Roberts of MofT tried to secure an NP 2-6-2. Wonder why the railroad didn't donate one (especially after what happened to the Z-8.) If you have additional information, hope you will at least include it in your book.

midlandblb@cs.com

> Jeff: A very interesting story! Wonder what
> the time frame was on the letters revealing
> that the 4-6-6-4 was scrapped instead of
> being saved. Also, what the date of the
> letter from Mr. Roberts on the T class 2-6-2
> Prairie. From MoT's point of view, a
> Challenger is missing from their apparent
> "one of each type wheel arrangements
> policy" as is (more importantly), a
> 2-6-2.

> Curious though why the NP would pick a
> 4-6-6-4 for preservation (although they
> certainly were handsome locomotives) over
> their Z-5 class 2-8-8-4's, a wheel
> arrangement that the Northern Pacific
> pioneered. Perhaps all of the Yellowstones
> were gone by 1957. Also curious is why the
> NP never saved one of their 4-8-4 Northerns;
> another type that the railroad pioneered
> (fortunately SP&S 700, basically an NP
> A-3 class Northern, WAS preserved.)
> Interesting that Mr. Roberts of MofT tried
> to secure an NP 2-6-2. Wonder why the
> railroad didn't donate one (especially after
> what happened to the Z-8.) If you have
> additional information, hope you will at
> least include it in your book.

A few years ago when we did our "Northern Pacific-Farewell to Steam" video using the Maynard Laing Film, and Elwin Purington's audio, Elwin told me how sad it was when they sent 4-8-4 #2626, the Timken engine from Seattle to Tacoma for scrapping. He said Maynard road the cab of the dead engine in tow, while he(Elwin did audio recordings from the car). That must have been sad indeed. Same for the 1372 which ran all those trips out of Seattle in 1956 and 1957 only to be scrapped later. The 1372 was a 4-6-0, and the 2626 was historic since it was the TIMKEN ENGINE!
I am sure there were a lot of sad episodes like these during the transition from steam to diesel.
Greg

PS..At least a couple of DM&IR Yellowstones survive!



sales@gregschollvideo.com

> Jeff: A very interesting story! Wonder what
> the time frame was on the letters revealing
> that the 4-6-6-4 was scrapped instead of
> being saved.

They started in the early 1950s, I belive. There were probably only five or six letters concerning this locomotive.

Also, what the date of the
> letter from Mr. Roberts on the T class 2-6-2
> Prairie.

I'd have to look at this one again. It was at a time (I want to say 1958 or '59) that the NP had a handful of the T class 2-6-2s that were available. There are a few other letters in the file regarding the sale of one of these to the Moorehead & North Fork. They of course did not buy one of them in the long run.

> Curious though why the NP would pick a
> 4-6-6-4 for preservation (although they
> certainly were handsome locomotives) over
> their Z-5 class 2-8-8-4's, a wheel
> arrangement that the Northern Pacific
> pioneered. Perhaps all of the Yellowstones
> were gone by 1957.

Don't can't answer this question. They only engine mentioned for preservation was the Z-8.

If you have
> additional information, hope you will at
> least include it in your book.

The book covers just the surviving steam locomotives that are now in the Iron Range area of Minnesota. The reason I was looking through the files was to find informtion regarding the Minnetonka, which is now on display at the railroad musuem in Duluth, and also NP class T No. 2435 which is there as well.

Jeff Terry

> The 1372 was a 4-6-0,

Greg:

You'll be pleased to know that another NP S-4 class 4-6-0, #1364 is currently under resotration by a group in the Yakima Valley at Toppenish, WA.

I'm looking forward to that.

Scott



shawsinoly@aol.com

Scott, this poor thing nas been torn down for decades now. Are they fnally actually making some progress?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

According to their web site, the restoration is once again making headway. They're saying Summer 2003 for a return to steam, and not a moment too soon - with the Minnesota Transportation Museum's 328 and Lake Whatcom Railway's 1070 both out of service, there currently aren't any working NP steamers, unless you count NP-designed SP&S 700 anyway. And on the subject of long-idle restoration projects of NP steamers, MTM is making progress again on 2156 as well.

NP 1364
rjenkins@railfan.net

> They started in the early 1950s, I belive.
> There were probably only five or six letters
> concerning this locomotive.

> Also, what the date of the

> I'd have to look at this one again. It was
> at a time (I want to say 1958 or '59) that
> the NP had a handful of the T class 2-6-2s
> that were available. There are a few other
> letters in the file regarding the sale of
> one of these to the Moorehead & North
> Fork. They of course did not buy one of them
> in the long run.

> Don't can't answer this question. They only
> engine mentioned for preservation was the
> Z-8.

> If you have

> The book covers just the surviving steam
> locomotives that are now in the Iron Range
> area of Minnesota. The reason I was looking
> through the files was to find informtion
> regarding the Minnetonka, which is now on
> display at the railroad musuem in Duluth,
> and also NP class T No. 2435 which is there
> as well.

> Jeff Terry

Jeff: Wow! You are full of all kinds of interesting information. The Morehead & North Fork interested in an NP T class Prairie. Now wouldn't THAT have been something! All three of the M&NF's last steamers (2-6-2 #11 and 0-6-0's #12 and 14) were preserved. It is a safe bet that IF the M&NF had purchased an NP 2-6-2 that it too would have ended up being saved. Also interesting why the M&NF was interested in, all of locomotives, an NP 2-6-2. Perhaps they were well satisfied with #11 but she was getting worn out. Certainly a Prairie would be a bit easier on the track than 0-6-0's. And Class 1's in those days with 2-6-2's were probably few and far between. Sure the heck wish that it HAD happened.

Sounds as if those letters would at least make a good article in themselves. Perhaps a letter to TRAINS Magazine might be in order.

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Greg:

> You'll be pleased to know that another NP
> S-4 class 4-6-0, #1364 is currently under
> resotration by a group in the Yakima Valley
> at Toppenish, WA.

> I'm looking forward to that.

> Scott

I didn't even know it was there, and was through there several times with 4449 and 700, and GW #51 in 1990.

I did a video on MRL called MONTANA RAILS back in 1999, and right there next to the Helena depot was 1382, so we made sure to include it with a flashback shot of the 1372 as well. I really liked the Z's and 4-8-4's the best of NP Steam though.
Greg

sales@gregschollvideo.com

How about an Article for RYPN first?

kevin.r.gillespie@verizon.et