Just in Myrtle Beach for some depositions, and ran across an 0-4-0T at a miniature golf joint along Route 17. The owner, of course, knew nothing about its history. Anyone have any info on this locomotive to tell me what's under the circus-style paint job? J. David's bible doesn't list anything for Myrtle Beach, but perhaps it was one of the other South Carolina 0-4-0's that's been moved--any ideas? Thanks for your help.

kevinmccabe@avenew.com

Kevin,

That is Solvay Process #49, ALCO (Cooke) 62752 of 1920.

I have noticed that about a third of the locomotives listed in J. David's directory have moved since 1988; the update he is working on is much needed.

In the meantime, Solvay Process #49 is listed at this location in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives".

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Just in Myrtle Beach for some depositions,
> and ran across an 0-4-0T at a miniature golf
> joint along Route 17. The owner, of course,
> knew nothing about its history. Anyone have
> any info on this locomotive to tell me
> what's under the circus-style paint job? J.
> David's bible doesn't list anything for
> Myrtle Beach, but perhaps it was one of the
> other South Carolina 0-4-0's that's been
> moved--any ideas? Thanks for your help.

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

> I have noticed that about a third of the
> locomotives listed in J. David's directory
> have moved since 1988;

Surely this is an exaggeration? I would have guessed it was only a few percent. It seems that very rarely is an owner willing to part with a steam locomotive on a reasonable basis. And anyway, if more locomotives were available, Kevin would be out there trying to buy them all up with other people's money.

But then you must know better than I. It would interesting to know what the average annual turnover is for steam engines (or railroad equipment in general).

> the update he is
> working on is much needed.

Agreed.

Richard,

Here are three different reasons for locomotives in motion. I can't possibly think of all the examples, but here are some from my part of the world:

1. Owner dies; estate sells. Or, owner really does want to sell them.

* Private owner in Hammond LA; had three locomotives, which were scattered from nearby Lutcher, LA to California after his death.

* Godchaux Sugar 2-4-4T #3, which was at the Godchaux mill in Reserve, LA; then to Old Hickory RR in Jackson, LA; now back at Reserve for display/plinthe while the Godchaux mill comes down. :(

* The unique Dickson 0-6-2T pictured in the directory. Was in Mississippi; the person who restored it died, and it went back to it's original owner in Patoutville, LA.

* I don't think the two Westfield plantation engines currently in Lampassas, TX are listed there by J. David; but they are for sale so they will move when they are sold.

2. Endangered park engine, moved to prevent scrapping or futher vandalism.

* EP&SW 4-4-0 #1, which J. David is currently restoring.

* Former Reader RR, for ANR 108, was at Conway Scenic, now at Blacklands Railroad, Sulphur Springs, TX.

* Temple Lumber Co. 2-8-2 is now at Katherine Sage Park in Pineland; I think Conrad had it listed at the lumber mill in Pineland where it was once located.

* T&NO 2-8-2 #794, moved from a park to the restored Southern Pacific Depot, St. Paul Square, San Antonio.

* T*NO 2-10-2 #975, moved from the park in Beaumont to the IRM in Union, IL.

3. Museum locomotives moved to another group or location.

* Two-truck Shay Conasauga Lumber #112; was at the Transportation Museum in Galveston, now in a park in Texas City, TX.

* Ex-US Army 0-6-0 #4002, was at what is now the Texas State Railroad, now at a closed museum outside of Baton Rouge, LA. (Have seen it in person, not a pretty sight at all.)

* SP 2-6-0 #1744, was at Gravevine, TX; then to the "Big Easy" train outside of New Orleans, LA; now for sale again.

* T&NO 2-8-2 #745, was in a park in New Orleans, then to the toy museum in Kenner, LA, now being restored near Ochsner Hospital outside New Orleans, LA.

Remember also the HEAVY J&L Steel lokies, which were at Crown Metal Products, Elizabeth, PA, and now scattered all over, and the locomotives at Thompson Winery, also scattered all over the country, not to mention the locomotives from the Norfolk Southern steam program.

Those are just the ones I could think of during lunch; there are lots more examples as well. Hard to believe, but true.

Steam vehicles are even worst by an order of magnitude; almost impossible to keep track of the ones in private hands without a serial number.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Surely this is an exaggeration? I would have
> guessed it was only a few percent. It seems
> that very rarely is an owner willing to part
> with a steam locomotive on a reasonable
> basis. And anyway, if more locomotives were
> available, Kevin would be out there trying
> to buy them all up with other people's
> money.

> But then you must know better than I. It
> would interesting to know what the average
> annual turnover is for steam engines (or
> railroad equipment in general).

> Agreed.


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

Snip, snip, snip...

> * T*NO 2-10-2 #975, moved from the park in
> Beaumont to the IRM in Union, IL.

(I can think of at least four others IRM has acquired since 1988.)

> Those are just the ones I could think of
> during lunch; there are lots more examples
> as well. Hard to believe, but true.

No, I'd agree. I don't want to keep nitpicking, but I was just arguing with the math. IIRC, Conrad's book lists something over 1900 locomotives. You listed about 20, which is one percent. I'd guess the total turnover in 12 years or so is a few percent; but one-third would be more than 600 locomotives changing hands, which doesn't seem possible.

Somebody with the right database skills should be able to figure out the average annual turnover, given the necessary input data. Anyone?

> Somebody with the right database skills
> should be able to figure out the average
> annual turnover, given the necessary input
> data. Anyone?

I don't know if Kelly Iverson still reads this board, but he is about the only person I know who has converted Conrad's directory to a database, and also has a copy of "Surviving World Steam Locomotives". He could give a good idea of the turnover, though not by year. Of course, J. David himself also has a good feel for the numbers, since he is updating his directory as we discuss this.

Ignoring the examples I gave from outside of the Louisiana/Texas region, 16 out of the roughly 100 steam locomotives in Texas and Louisiana have been moved, or about 16%. That would make my seat-of-the-pants quote be twice as much as it really is, if you consider 100 out of 1875 to be a big enough sample size.

While we are on the subject, I have a spreadsheet I use to track my steam engine totals worldwide. I have been using my column for "source" in conjuction with this spreadsheet to see how my totals compared with J. David's directory, and to determine (along with striking them out in the Index by Builder) if I have accounted for them all.

The final numbers:
* 1903, compared to 1875 in the Directory. This number comes from taking the total for North America in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" (2198) and factoring out the following:
* 132 Amusement Park locomotives; subtract since Conrad was not interested in these.
* 28 Homebuilt locomotives; subtract for same reasons.
* 59 sunk/buried steam locomotives; subtract for same reason.
* 20 replicas
* 5 diesel conversions
* 27 compressed air locomotives (including the Anacortes Railway Forney.)

This difference shows that there are 23 that I am not sure if they match an entry in Conrad's directory, a duplicate, or a new entry. In addition,

* 31 steam locomotives have since been found. (Two from BC, Canada I entered just today.)
* 14 have since been imported.
* 8 have since been exported
* 12 have been confirmed scrapped.

Once again, J. David has a feeling for these numbers as well.

I don't consider any of this to be perfect math, just an attempt to get it all as accurate as possible; especially on a worldwide scale.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

Good work James! I try to keep track of just the museum owned locos; especially the narrow gauge ones and I too am surprised by the numbers.

Sadly the numbers continue to go down as once an engine is gone there will no replacements to replace it. Yes, there is the A1 in England; but that is one engine, think how many have gone since J David wrote the book in 1988!

Norman Brouwer is working on the first update of his International Register of Historic Ships you should get him your contact info for a copy when it is ready. Steam ships and boats move too. And there is a new one in Canada re-engined with a 1895 compound.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov