In case anyone is interested, here is the two-part BBC video called 'Absolutely Chuffed' about the birth of 60163. I found it interesting. Not high tech info, BBC production for the mass market but still interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_k_-Tov ... AAAAAAAACQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvWrNQqH ... re=related

Now, if we could just get that 'PRR T1 Trust' off the ground....now taking subscriptions at one Starbucks coffee a week :)

I WISH that we could get rail enthusiasts in the US together to undertake such a project, but alas, we are extremely territorial, and unable to look beyond our favorite road to support a locomotive of another railroad.

I do think that the selection of what to build would be a NYC Hudson. But a Pennsy fan would never donate to that, and some B&O fans would scoff that its not an EM-1, and on and on and on. If that hurdle could be overcome the rail enthusiast population in the US collectively has enough disposable income to make it happen. We are a rather well off bunch.

Good video. I would agree that the railfan community is too fractured here in the US to accomplish anything like this. Not just that, but people who read about it (like on here) are more willing to talk about the problems and reasons why it can't happen than the people in the tornado group who sat around over a few beers and willed it into existence. We here find it easyier to say "it can't be done" and chastise those people who would try to the point where no one wants to tackle a project like this because it is nicle and dimed to the point where no one can get enough people around it. We have been conditioned to believe that we can't do it, where as (when it comes to not only steam in general, but main line steam) the Brits have been conditioned to believe thay they can. Almost every weekend over there there is a main line locomotive out and about.

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs12.htm

We just find it easier to gripe about it and discourage the idea, for what reason.....I don't know. I guess it's much easier to not be involved than it is to be involved....that and the railroads here have also been conditioned (with a few excetions) that it does not pay.....or it's just not worth it.

I disagree.

I feel that the obstacles are twofold:

1) we are such a larger nation that it would take far more effort for me to, for example, go to ride behind 261, 4449, 3751, etc, from where I am than it would be fora Brit in Penzance to go to a steam special on the Mallaig Line. Similarly, Strasburg, Steamtown, and Cass are to the Californians what, say, Poland's Plandampf would be to a Brit, in time and distance. Most of Britain can get to someplace Tornado has or can run within a half-day's drive. Not so for 3713, 1522, 261, 700, 3751, 425, 4501, 610, etc. (Conversation from last night: Tucson, AZ is generally regarded as a day's drive from Flagstaff or Prescott.)

2) The problem is not that we wouldn't contribute to a rebuild-replication of a mainline steamer. The problem is that we are offered NO ASSURANCE WHATSOEVER that a brand-new, super-designed, modernized "PRR T1, "NYC Hudson/Niagara", "SR Ps-4," whatever--would ever be allowed any access to a major main line upon which to frolic, let alone any trackage that would be convenient for "us" to go see or ride behind it--in fact, ALL evidence points in exactly the opposite direction.

If we were presented a solid case that a "new" steam loco built by a private party or consortium could be granted access to any place that a passenger train could run upon payment of the appropriate charter fees (in other words, "open access" within the authority of all other applicable AAR and FRA regulations, including positive train control exemption or provision), it would already have been built or under construction. But we don't even dare think of such a delusion as long as we continue to hear such pathetic travesties as not allowing a light-engine move of a reliable steamer ten miles over a company's track from one rail line to another.

In agreement.

Anything can be accomplished. The issue becomes the desire to accomplish the task, and how useful a marketing tool a new engine could be to the rail carriers, or the corporation that builds a new engine.

For the past twenty-seven years Steam is permitted on the various railways in the UK. Its policy. In the US, no such policy exists. Save for the NS/UP Steam Programs that are in house, its all on a case by case basis .

Many mainline British engines are also subsidized by the UK's national lottery system for preservation. Here, its TEA/Safety Lu that permits subsidization of historic locomotive rebuilding, and who gets what according to the states is purely political.

And sadly, US Railfans, for the most part, are cheap. While there are some exceptions, most enthusiasts are long and vocal on "what should be done" according to their logic, but when asked to donate to an operation or even ride an excursion, the back pedaling is really fun to watch.

Whether restoring a park engine or building a new one, it really is about the families throughout the country who haven't had the opportunity to see a working steam engine and learn the history on how this machine was an integral part of building the US. How to translate that into a national history policy to include the steam engine operation and management may be the route for expanded operation.

I would agree with East of Eden.


There are locations that draw quite a large croud of railfans where main line steam is present such as Trainfest. A look at the data sheets from the "major" players in the steam world shows thousands of riders/visitors each year. The Californians coming to Strasburg/Steamtown/Cass is a good point about travel distance, but they shouldn't have to come all the way out east with main line programs in California and the west....and a brand new engine should have no problems coming to them. The British have 41 main line certified engines in a space +/- that of the North East. There is precident for this like with the 4449 going to trainfest.


" The problem is not that we wouldn't contribute to a rebuild-replication of a mainline steamer. The problem is that we are offered NO ASSURANCE WHATSOEVER that a brand-new, super-designed, modernized "PRR T1, "NYC Hudson/Niagara", "SR Ps-4," whatever--would ever be allowed any access to a major main line upon which to frolic, let alone any trackage that would be convenient for "us" to go see or ride behind it--"

Has anyone gone to the steam friendly class 1 or regional lines and asked what their opinion on a brand new modern roller bearing engine would be? We are assuming that they are going to say flat out no, when the reality of the thing is that they allow (with the exception of CSX) friction bearing equipment to run right now....and the argurement of the WM #734 issue would be mute. Using the friction bearing arguement (IMHO) is not really vallid seeing as I don't think anyone building a brand new engine would make the conciouse dicision to go with friction bearings. Basing an entire arguement on the CSX decision not to move the 734 just proves my point as NS, UP, BNSF, Amtrack, and CP have all had moves on them last year.

Are you referring to steam, or just friction bearings?

In the case of Amtrak, I recently inquired about the possibility of a special movement of a particular historic piece of rolling stock over a short portion of the Northeast Corridor. The query went to the Clearances Manager in D.C., who promptly responded with "nohow, no way, ain't never gonna happen ever!" I then had the guy who works at the desk next to him hand over photos of an identical "class mate" of the same type of rolling stock proudly posed in Washington Union Station for one of the "National Train Day" celebrations recently. The guy then grudgingly conceded that, yeah, maybe in the right circumstances, well, MAYBE......

"Are you referring to steam, or just friction bearings?"

Yes

I understand where your frustration in dealing with managers can come from. A lot of these guys don't care about our "historic rolling stock". Believe me, I know. But there is a HUGE difference between trying to move a brand new piece of equipment vs an "historic" one. All I'm saying is that maybe....just maybe....we shouldn't always go right to shooting these ideas down, because they are viable....they are plausable....and are being done. Maybe not in the U.S. (yet)....but they are being done. Like I said before, we just like to shoot it down and debate the thing to death untill it goes away, because we would rather find an excuse to get out of the hard work instead of finding a way around it. And there are plenty of ways around it.

As expected, the naysayers have come out in force. Maybe America has lost that ability to do the impossible. We are now timid, unsure of ourselves and waiting for the Alexander Mitchells of the nation to reaffirm our belief that the days of tackling challenges head on and finding solutions to problems are now "thankfully" behind us. We are now here merely to manage the decline of a once great nation. The gene pool that created people such as Tesla, Cassatt, Baldwin, Hill, Edison has finally been drained. Why take a risk when we can wallow in mediocrity.

What the naysayers do not seem to understand is that the true accomplishment of such a project is not as much the operation of the locomotive, but in its creation. The thrill and excitement of doing what we all thought was impossible. It was conventional wisdom that a mainline steam locomotive could never be built again before Tornado. That the technology and skills had been lost, and that the cost too high. The Brits shattered that conventional wisdom and showed the world what could be done.

Another thing that the naysayers do not understand is that construction of the locomotive would be a decade long project, most likely longer. Yet they cite the current realities of the industry and assume that there will be no changes in management, operations, political will or public relations desires of the railroads in 2025 or whenever the locomotive would finally be completed. Who would have thought 5 years ago that the NS would be running steam trains again? Who would have made that bet?

So yes naysayers, cite every reason why such a project should not be undertaken. Work hard to assure that these ideas die in their formational stages. The existence of Tornado must be a thorn in your side, as it is proof that the all knowing, all seeing naysayer is not infallible, and despite your best efforts a small group of people did what could not be done.

If there was a like button, I would have just hit it.....

Let's be straightforward here:

I can't prove a negative.

It's incumbent upon those with the "can-do" attitude to prove me wrong with a "why, sure, we'll let you run your new steamer on our railroad!" response.

I'm not going to waste the energy of asking unless I have a winning Powerball lottery ticket in my hand, plus a written proposal from those with more engineering and logistical experience in the matter than I have.

If you think you can do it, more power to you. I simply don't want to make the entire "industry" look bad with a series of half-thought-out, half-witted dreamers with more ambition than sense wasting the time and ears of the Powers That Be in North American railroading.

Wow....who wizzed in your wheeties.....

"I simply don't want to make the entire "industry" look bad with a series of half-thought-out, half-witted dreamers with more ambition than sense wasting the time and ears of the Powers That Be in North American railroading."


1.) You don't have that response because you haven't asked. There can be no response to the unasked question. How do you think the 261, 4449, SP&S 700, SF 3715, C&O 614 got out on the high iron? They asked....they didn't sit there peeing their pants at the tought of the "big bad choochoonator".

2.) It's not a "waste of time" unless all you want to do is shoot the ideas out of the water. How is someone to come to a good idea about how the "industry" really feels about it if all we're going to do is say "I'm lazy so it can't happen", or "It's too much work". That's the way it sure sounds sometimes.....

3.) Half-witted dreamers? Are you high? IT'S BEEN DONE!!!! Proof is pulling trains. I'll tell ya for a bunch of "half-witted dreamers" they sure did put together one heck of a pacific. I'm glad to count myself as wun o de tupid pepo who tink it happen. Mongo like choo choo......

And we wonder why no one with a major rebuild or restoration project wants to talk about it....because some people will just bash it into oblivion....

I'm very well aware of that....I work in a steam program. I do remember the big boy talk, but at that time I was not really in the inerworkings of the industry. So I can't talk as to what they may or may not have done with that whole thing. Not much can be found on it in terms of reading materiel.

People are pulling off getting engines to Trainfest....how's that possible if it "can't happen". I understand that there are very large issues with something like this....and I'm not saying that I'm the one to do it, or the one to make it happen. I am however saying that it is VERY plausable that it could, and there are people who could make it happen. It is not a dead issue by any shape or form....that being IMHO only....

Maybe that should wait just a little while, at least until Dave Kloke manages to get the art of full sized steam locomotives down to a science. ;)
On a more serious note, it wouldn't surprise me if within the next decade or so, we see the 4-4-0 for Steam into History followed by similar machines. The V&T Lyon replica should be working within the decade as well. Just looking at these imminent completion of these two projects, I would be surprised if that serves as something of a rallying cry to start a replica movement for something like a T1, a J3a, or even a Niagara. Last I checked, I don't know "The Doctor", so I can't borrow the TARDIS to find out if we ever see replicas of these famous locomotives.

We have numerous steam locomotives that are, for all practical and logistical purposes, only a bunch of paperwork and a few (hundreds of thousands of) dollars away from prancing about on the main lines:

Just off the top of my head:
Frisco 1522.
T&P 610.
B&LE 643,
Pere Marquette 1225.
Nickel Plate 765.
N&W 611.
SP&S 700.
SP 4449.
Reading 2100.
A couple Chinese 2-10-2's.
C&O 614.

Take one of these locos, which costs much less to get into operation than building a whole new one from scratch, and approach the Class Ones or whoever. Tell us what they say.