Here is a link to 32 photographs of a 3-foot-gage coach located at a private residence in Wisconsin:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44474109@N ... 074486121/


I am wondering if anybody here can shed any light on the exact origin of this car. Some information sources suggest it is a replica that includes some original parts from other equipment. To me, it looks surprisingly authentic, and possibly even an original historic car that may have only had some refurbishing done to the interior parts and finishes.

It is lettered for the Lac La Belle & Calumet RR, an obscure, 7-mile line in the Michigan “Copper Country” that lost its identity around 1900 when it was bought by the Keweenaw Central RR. The LLB&C never reached Calumet, but the KC did. The car is named “Redjacket,” which was the original name of the today’s city of Calumet, MI.

So what is the history and origin of this car? Is this an actual historical car that was once owned and operated by the LLB&C, and was somehow preserved when the line lost its identity around 1900? If so, what were the incredible circumstances that brought that about?

This is the car that has come up for sale elsewhere for $50,000, its scratchbuilt with some original parts from other cars, but basically a beautiful replica see this thread on NGDF
http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,209241

Mike Pannell

Mike,

I have have seen the ad and the description of the car's origin, but after speaking to the seller of this car, I have learned that he does not know the origin for certain. He is conveying his understanding from others. The information being conveyed is that the car was built from a Quincy & Torch Lake car or parts therefrom. It was built by somebody in Wisconsin for their private railroad. But I know of nothing left over from the Q&TL that resembles anything shown on this car.

But coincidentally, the Q&TL and the Lac La Belle & Calumet RR were only about 35 miles apart. When I look at the craftsmanship and design detail of this circa 1880 car, I have a hard time believeing that somebody built it from scratch for their backyard railroad. I have an equally hard time believing that this is an original car that somehow survived from circa 1900.

Somebody must know the exact history.

I think this is the same car discussed here, for sale by IRM.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32776

Wesley

Ron, while I agree, the former owner of this car appears to have been very talented. The other thread, linked in the post above shows the Milwaukee Road obs car Lake City which also was stunningly restored. The person was one heck of a craftsman.

With the right talent and funding, one can build very convincing replicas. Just look at the replica coach at the Henry Ford, and it's two companions, now in Utah.

I've always heard the car referred to as being from the Hancock and Calumet Railroad/way. From what I had heard, it was a salvaged carbody restoration.... I'll probably be corrected on this, but the Quincy & Torch Lake was a mining railroad, and did not have any passenger cars. The Copper Country was filled with these small mineral railroads of various gauges.

Does anybody know the whereabouts of the Quincy & Torch Lake caboose that this same man owned? It was salvaged from the mine at about the same time that the Hancock & Calumet car was saved...

David,

Yes, I did look at the thread on the Lake City, and this narrow gage car is owned by the same party. Both cars are beautiful, and I know that there was a lot of restoration work put into the Lake City. I suspect there was also a lot of restoration work done on the narrow gage car.

But I do not believe that the narrow gage car is a scratch built replica. It is not that I doubt that a replica can look that good. But in speaking to the seller, it seems that the background of this car is somewhat sketchy, possibly having something to do with the Q&TL, but maybe not. The guy who acquired or created the car did acquire other items from the Q&TL.

So what I want to find out is the origin of the car. It is hard to believe that an 1880 narrow gage coach was somehow saved to survive into this era when the last owner refurbished it. Did it spend 60-70 years in a barn up in Michigan before the last owner acquired it?

Ron,

You may be reading too much into this. The Railswap ad stated that the car uses "original metal parts from a Quincy & Torch Lake passenger car." Those metal parts could have been the end railings, the grab irons, truck parts, etc. It hasn't been said that all of the metal parts came from a Q&TL car.

I agree that the full story will be interesting, but I imagine it's new construction, and maybe using parts sourced or scavenged from other sources. For example, the light fixtures look awfully similar to the ones installed in the Milwaukee Road's "branch line combines" that were built in the 1940s. The seats could have been cut down from a car of similar vintage, etc.

Didn't the Q&TL have a combine/caboose that survived in rather rotten form into the 1970s in Wisconsin?

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/qtlvan.jpg

wctruboat and David,

That is interesting. I am familiar with the Hancock & Calumet RR. The Q&TL had a four-wheel bobber caboose, and also a coach/caboose, which was some sort of modification produced by the company earlier. It was like a coach with a cupola on one end. In the 1970s, the coach/caboose body was rotting away in a farmyard near the Q&TL right of way. I am not sure what happened to the bobber, but I never saw it. There was an eight-wheel caboose with a centered cupola that was on site until someone burned it in the early 1970s or so.

I could see the possibility of historic car bodies being preserved on farms as sheds and buildings. I suppose it is possible that an H&C body was found and mounted on a flat car that had the truss rods and queen posts intact, and then a set of narrow gage passenger car trucks was acquired from another source. That all would explain the car we see today. If that is what happened, the flat car could have come from the Q&TL.

Ron,

I do not see why you keep thinking there is some elaborate history here, like a "barn find" coach body grafted to a flatcar. Just because the car has metal components from a Q&TL car, such as the aforementioned caboose or caboose/coach, does not mean that all of the metal parts came from that car.

The most likely explaination is that it is a new-build car, using some salvaged componets. The builder of the car was very talented, and had the ability to make the various parts to produce an accurate replica of a circa 1880s narrow gauge coach. Things like queen posts and truss rods can be reproduced today, given the right tools and equipment. If you have pattern making skills, you can even have all of the various castings made for the car.

I just think the answer is probably a lot more simple: the builder built the car, mostly new, but using some salvaged metal componets, rather than some elaborate story of barn find bodies, and grafting them to flatcars, etc.

David,

I realize that the individual who created this coach could have completely designed and fabricated it from scratch, except for some use of pre-existing, second-hand metal parts from other sources. All I am seeking is the exact explanation of how this car originated.

I have talked to the seller about the origin of this car, and he would like to learn that information as well. Reported information about the car's origin have it linked with the Quincy & Torch Lake RR, but that has not been confirmed in any detail. The person who owned the car is said to have purchased other equipment from Q&TL.

Specifically, the explanation that the car was built from scratch using metal parts from a Q&TL car has not been confirmed. I am not aware of any rolling stock left over from the Q&TL that had parts that could be associated with this car.

I'd say the metalwork in those trucks came from something better than a flatcar.

I don't know why everyone is getting hung up on the Quincy & Torch Lake. It wasn't the only narrow gauge in the area, only the last, and so the name comes to mind easily. However, in the 1870's and 1880's there was a whole little 3' gauge system on the Keweenaw Peninsula. The original Mineral Range Railroad, later DSS&A and later still Soo Line, was originally built to 3' gauge. It connected to, and later consolidated with, the 3' gauge Hancock & Calumet. Both roads had coaches similar in appearance to the car in question, and there is nothing to say that enough of a body didn't remain to provide patterns and fittings for a replica. The article by John F. Campbell in the October, 1980 issue of The SOO, the magazine of the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society has several photos of passenger trains with similar coaches, unfortunately none clear enough to make a positive identification. One thing that's confusing is the car's name, RED JACKET; that name was applied to Baldwin 2-6-0 No. 8, the last new narrow gauge engine bought by the Mineral Range in 1892.

Dennis,

The only association with the Q&TL is sketchy information from the owner who is donating the car to the present seller. Coincidentally, the car is lettered for another very early and obscure railroad in the same vicinity of the Q&TL. So, overall, there appears to be some connection to the “copper country.”

Ron,

Did you pick up on the fact that both the Mineral Range RR and Hancock & Calumet are also both in "copper country"? Both the Q&TL and the Mineral Range passed the Quincy Mill on Torch Lake, and both had lines in the vicinity of the Quincy Mine, but I'm not sure they connected, and don't really have time to research the question. However, all the lines were related, at least in gauge, and some of the equipment now on display at the Quincy Hoist House Museum (at least as of 1980 when the article was written) was former Mineral Range equipment. There is also the question whether the Q&TL picked up any of the Mineral Range equipment when the later road was converted to standard gauge; I don't have the answer to that, either. But, I would leave open the possibility that when someone says the parts came from the Q&TL, they may just mean the Keweenaw Peninsula.

Dennis,

Yes, I understand the relationship between the Q&TL and the connecting Mineral Range RR, and its narrow gage origin. I am very interested in that region and its railroad and mining history. Some of the Q&TL cars did come from the MR and from the H&C, as you mentioned.

I am familiar with the Q&TL equipment that was left over after the 1945 shutdown. Other than the Q&TL cars of MR and H&C origin, I do not know of any equipment surviving from those two roads or from the Lac La Belle & Calumet RR for which the car is lettered. However, I would not rule out the possibility of surviving cars from these roads that may have been stored up there by private parties.