I recall some recent discussion about this,
if anyone has any link(s) to past discussion, thanks.

A few restoration projects are nearing the lettering stage,
and we have been kicking around the paint vs vinyl debate.

We have used both in past years, including using vinyl as a stencil for paint,
which works well, but if using on a rough surface such as old freight car metal, (I call allegator skin finish)
the vinyl has to be repeatedly pressed down or the paint will find its way under.

I would also appreciate comments on clear-coat for lettering,
including Brand names, number of coats, application techniques. (clear coat will be new for us)

Any horror - stories ?

Thanks for any help.

Steve G.
Rdg. Co. T & H S / Reading RR Heritage Museum

http://www.ReadingRailroad.org
(some info on this site is not current)

I'd think the 'usual' sort of vinyl is almost always the wrong answer for lettering.

It won't stick well to imperfectly prepared surfaces, especially at the edges, and looks crappy if even a small amount of the edge separates and starts to curl. Theoretically you could put glue under the edges and 'iron' it down, but I have never seen that work effectively in practice.

My experience is that it bleaches and destabilizes in sunlight and weather within a few years, so the material and not just the adhesive is an issue. It also curls and hardens; perhaps you could still get the material to lie flat by heat-gunning it and applying iron pressure, but I've never gotten that to work well. (Perhaps all this has changed recently with the advent of better UV stabilization).

I have found that where vinyl has gapped or cracked, it's usually ineffective to patch new material over the old, and 'fill-in' painting won't look right.

It might be interesting to see whether some of the material used to produce modern vehicle wraps (polyester film, perhaps) would represent a better approach... but you'd still need good surface prep, and edges would be a problem.


Something to consider with painting lettering using stick-on cut vinyl as a stencil: Make the mask of vinyl, then use a liquid frisket around the edges to be painted, so that it runs up under any pockets at the edges. Then use a sharp blade around the edges, with the vinyl as a guide, and peel the cut frisket back away from the vinyl edges, being careful not to yank on any small bits that didn't get cut through (trim them as you come across them while peeling). I did this successfully on uneven, rusted surfaces (and weathered wood) a few years ago.


RME

What exactly are you painting? freight car, passenger car, locomotive? I have used several different vinyls and have had good results painting two wood single sheath boxcars with somewhat rough siding. If it is a freight car some over spray would have been found while in service. I think the problem is we all want to do a professional job but in some cases this wasn't how the actual artifact would have appeared in service.

Richard Wilkens

Vinyl is my go-to for fast and inexpensive jobs,or indoor storage of smooth clean stuff to which it will stick well. Being an antique myself, I use pounce patterns and one-shot for most painted on lettering, and have been known to project a slide of the lettering onto the car side and trace it with a pencil, then fill in.

dave

When we painted our 0-4-0T before the WV rails event in 2010, we lettered her up with vinyl. So far so good and she lives outside since we don't have a roof. Just this year, we have started to get a corner or two peeling up on the tank itself, which bakes in the sun and is also a high traffic area while going up on top of the engine. Numbers and letters on the side of the cab and back of the oil tank are doing just fine.

Cool thing about vinyl is that we can change the lettering or even the color of the lettering relatively quickly and for less than $75.

Vinyl lettering materials seem to be geared to the truck decorating market, so only have a limited life. few fleet owners expect to keep a truck much beyond seven years, so no need for the lettering to last much longer.

If your vinyl stencil won't stay stuck at the edges, there's not much chance the lettering will fare any better. A railroad car with faded lettering just looks like a piece of equipment that's been in service for a number of years, whereas one with curled vinyl lettering just looks like hell.

I was going to suggest that one way to deal with the bleed-under on less than perfect surfaces is to shoot a coat of the background color through the stencil first, to seal the edges, but the frisket suggestion is even better.

It's definitely easier to apply paint over rivets than vinyl.

Overmod,
Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "liquid frisket"?
Cheers, Bob

Steve, this was my response on an earlier post regarding DRGW 223 in this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33022

"if I might suggest, instead of using vinyl lettering on the tender as mentioned in the blog, consider having a vinyl stencil cut instead, and paint the lettering on. I think you can find previous discussions on this board concerning the use of vinyl lettering vs. painting the lettering. But since you have someone that is going to supply the lettering anyway, I'd recommend going the stencil route. I've seen too many instances of vinyl letters suffering from edge curl and peeling. However, if you do use vinyl lettering, I'd have to suggest that you follow letter application with a clear coat to seal the edges of the lettering. This will help the letters last longer. I can point to 3 pieces of equipment where this was done and after a little over 7 years the lettering seems to be holding up fine. Two of these are fully exposed to the south Georgia weather, with full sun all day since the cars are on a north-south oriented track and never see shade except early morning and late afternoon. Just make sure the surfaces are properly prepared prior to both letter and clear coat application. My 2 cents worth."

I'd have to dig out what information I may have on file, but we used a PPG color coat-clear coat automotive paint system with hand scuffing of areas where the vinyl was to be applied prior to vinyl application, and the rest of the car prior to application of the clear coat. If we could have gotten it all done within 24 hours of the color being sprayed, the color and clear coats would have bonded chemically and we wouldn't have had to scuff everything, but this was outdoor painting and weather wasn't the best. Holes were cut where the vinyl went over rivets or plate seams, and since the vinyl was white, a matching automotive white paint was used to touch up these areas. All the vinyl was rolled with special attention to the edges. Air pockets/bubbles were pricked to remove air, followed by a dab of white paint to seal the pinprick. Once all that was done and the clear ready to go on, the unscuffed areas were scuffed, wiped down with tack cloths and then the clear was shot. Seven years later and we're still good.

But I'd still recommend going with vinyl stencils and painting the lettering, if at all possible.

3M makes a specific product called "paint mask" which was all we used for all the lettering and other graphics on the DL&W F3's. Worked very well and was easy to use. Combined the ease of vinyl with the longevity of paint. We also wanted to match the color of the maroon lettering with the main maroon stripe. A good sign shop should be able to order a roll so expect to pay for the special order.
That said I've used quite a bit of high quality vinyl. There are many different grades. Good quality designed for outdoor applications and applied properly will not have issues of raised edges or coming off.
For additional longevity the vinyl can be clear coated when the entire car or locomotive is done. Todays paints do not have the colorfast longevity without a clear coat. Evidence CN not clear coating and the orange fades to pink while NS clear coats everything (yes even the black paint).

Did the pieces you're working on use vinyl?

There's your answer...

We have painted and lettered four locomotives since 2008, and have used three different techniques. Our T6 was done with vinyl. We provided the artwork to a shop and they produced the graphics. The shop where it was painted applied the vinyl lettering.

The GP9 was done the old fashioned way: we traced the images to the metal, masked off the area outside the fonts, and then painted the letters. It produces a much more prototypical look to the finished locomotive but is very labor intensive.

Our recently painted SDs were done with laser cut three ply stencils which dramatically reduced the time and we still wound up with a finished product which rivals anything that came out of La Grange. The center layer is the actual stencil, sandwiched between two layers of low adhesive paper. Remove the bottom layer and apply the stencil to the locomotive; burnish the material to remove air bubbles/blisters; remove the top layer of adhesive; remove the cut-out letters/numbers exposing the metal surface; paint it (the background paper becomes the mask for the painting).

My advise is to go with the three ply stencils. The difference in cost between having vinyl graphics made and the three ply stencils is small. If you want to do it the less expensive way, the trade off is the time it takes to produce the graphics before the paint is applied.

You mentioned rough surface. We painted a Milwaukee herald on a wood reefer a couple years back. Kirk posted a lot of photos of the process.

http://www.irm.org/gallery/album22?page=12

Similar to the way EMD painted locos the letter color is painted first. Then 3M masking is cut and applied where you want the lettering color. Then the body color is applied. In this case we applied the red herald “background” color with a somewhat dry roller. On a smooth surface that would have been all but with the wood car siding a touch up is required at the gaps.

http://www.irm.org/gallery/album22/aji

Great series of photos there, Buzz.
Thanks for posting the link.

I would like to hear comments about clear-coat,
how many coats applied, and how many years does it last,
and I'm talking about completely outside, no shelter what-so-ever.

Thanks to all for the constructive comments so far !

If anyone wants a historical perspective, all of the lettering and heralds on CNR steam locomotives were all decals (from cab numerals (if not cast numbers), to the fuel capacities on the tender). The CNR maintenance regulation book specifies that transfers (decals) are to receive only one coat of synthetic enamel.

(The book also says that the boiler jacket and tenders are to be clear coated over the black paint as well)

I volunteer at a museum in New Jersey. Vinyl graphics have been used on pieces of equipment. Our problem is that we have no opportunity to turn the equipment. As such, one side of the cars takes a beating while the other stays in good order. Unfortunately, the side that takes a beating faces our customers. Vinyl graphics offer a very convenient, cost effective way to instantly refresh the appearance of any equipment. We are fortunate to have a very good vinyl company nearby. The work they do is very difficult to distinguish from real paint. I understand the purists may scoff at vinyl but, if you're operating on a budget, it is very attractive and effective.