How late were the lines of steam locos still at Sterling, Illinois? That has always seemed like the last bastion of Berks, 2-10-4's, Mikes, and Northerns. A friend of the late Nelson Blount tells a story of Nelson going to Sterling to buy a CB&Q 6300 "Texas", only to find the last of them being used as boilers and partly cut away. Shortly afterwards, one of those suffered a boiler failure. As I recall however, Nelson Blount saved the 1218 from certain destruction.

Here's an interesting previous thread about N&W #1218 which was saved because it was purchased for stationary boiler service by Union Carbide, along with sisters #1202 and #1230, which were not saved, but gave up parts to make #1218 complete.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9467

We.........

CAN'T............

Save...........

EVERYTHING.

Period. Full stop.

Where are you going to put it? Who's going to restore it, and erect a shed or keep her painted? And, most importantly, who's going to bankroll the endowment that will be needed to maintain it in perpetuity?

This isn't just railroading, mind you. It's boats, and planes, and buildings and books and photos and estates, you name it.

Current reading: "Capitol Losses: Washington's Destroyed Buildings":
http://www.amazon.com/Capital-Losses-Wa ... 050&sr=1-1

The price we pay for modern Washington D.C.--the Mall, Union Station, the Metro, the Supreme Court, the Library of Congress, the Kennedy Center--is that hundreds, or thousands, of old buildings had to be demolished. Old and outdated estates, fire-trap schools and theaters and hotels, churches with diminishing congregations, old department stores, the Baltimore & Potomac Station, you name it.

Do we need--as one example--a complete set of EVERY timetable ever issued by the PRR, the SP, the C&NW, etc.? Nice to have, nice to have access to, but where are you going to put it, and more importantly, how often is anyone going to use it in 100 years?

And just remember, while you're saving all those boxcars and signal bridges and locomotives and trolleys, other people want to save one of every car model (and variation) ever made, and others want to save planes and battlefields and mail-order cottages and covered bridges and sacred burial grounds and scenic vistas and.....

Yesterday, the day after a flotilla of tall ships departed my city's harbor, an associate at one museum informed me that a "historic" tugboat that had been the target of a preservation effort had been scrapped. Tough beans, as they say, but I'd rather see the energy put into keeping afloat the one steam tug we still have in Baltimore, which wasn't even able to steam up for her 100th birthday party.

As much as I'm a history enthusiast and preservationist, I am old enough and have seen enough to recognize the need for balance and perspective. Declaring the destruction of EVERY old thing as "tragic" and "criminal" shows a lack of such perspective and clarity; not only that, the mentality in play with such declarations is ultimately an infringement on the property rights of individuals and corporations.

Because, remember, ultimately, those are my PRR timetables, I have twenty of the same danged ones in this stack, and I took the best of the bunch to the railroad museum. And if I don't have to worry about that boxload of stuff, I can save a boxload of different, better, and more unusual stuff.

Of course, we still DO have three; numbers 225, 227 and 229. I think the one that had been on display at Two Harbors and was later scrapped was 221. And yes, a fourth would have been nice.

Also would have been nice to have a Northern Pacific 2-8-8-4, from where the Yellowstone got its name.

Les

"We.........CAN'T............Save...........EVERYTHING. Period. Full stop.

Where are you going to put it? Who's going to restore it, and erect a shed or keep her painted? And, most importantly, who's going to bankroll the endowment that will be needed to maintain it in perpetuity?"

Yes. Agreed. Hard facts. But should we simply shrug our shoulders, take pictures, say that was nice but I won't look for a way? Once the artifact is gone, it is gone forever, and that leaves future generations without a chance to enjoy it for themselves. And while I disagree with Alex #4's feelings about a certain GG1, I can understand his perspective. If we could poll those who agreed with the alleged Al Perlman statement about a Hudson ("Tell 'em we have nothing worth saving") versus those who would want a Hudson in static display, I think I know how the voting would go. If we poll those who would say, "A rusting Mohawk should be cut up after being altered and left outside for 50 years", I think people would rally around the locomotive. I'm not trying to start a war, I'm saying that every creative resource for preservation should be exhausted before the artifact is consigned to fire.

Not a war - just a conflicting perspective. WE SHOULD TRY EVERY ALTERNATIVE TO DESTRUCTION IN THE NAME OF PRESERVATION.

Here is a classic example of the WWII scrap-drive locomotives mentioned earlier in this thread:



The Lehigh Valley's inspection engine "Dorothy" was once "preserved" in a sense..
In 1933 the LV had retired the engine, and her fate was uncertain.. she was purchased from the LV by a private individual, John Vaughn, and operated on a loop of track on his estate near Wilkes Barre, PA..Dorothy was privately owned, although not preserved in the "at a museum" sense..

Mr. Vaughn passed away in 1936, and Dorothy was donated by his family to a local historical society..(I dont know the name of the society..I will try to find out)

Something fell-through with Dorothy going to the historical society, (I dont know what happened, all we have is newspaper clippings) and the loco instead was given, or sold (by Vaughn's family) to Mr. Frank S. Mitten, a retired LV official, in 1937...

Mr. Mitten passed away in 1943..His widow then donated Dorothy to a WWII scrap drive..

If she had made it, she would have been the only surviving LV Steam locomotive..
today, there is not one single LV steam locomotive in existence..

Scot

I recall seeing a small ad in TRAINS Magazine soliciting donations to preserve and operate a Great Northern 4-8-4. The engine had apparently been set aside while the effort was being made. There was even a small photo of the engine, but I don't think that it was number 2584, the one that is preserved next to the AMTRAK station in Havre, Montana. In any event, the effort to save this other GN 4-8-4 obviously failed.

Les

Not your decision. As far as I'm concerned, people have a right to preserve anything they can cover.

Here are my rules of thumb.
Cost of covering 1 car efficiently in a large carbarn: $15,000/car
(excluding track and trolley which you would need anyway outside)
Mortgage payment 30 year note: $850/year/car
Building maintenance next 35 years: $200/year/car
Cost of maintaining the car indoors: $100/year/car

Total cost of housing and maintaining car indoors: average, $500/year

Cost of housing and maintaining the car OUTdoors: $1500/year

Any questions?

You pay for the carbarn either way. The only difference is whether you get one.

[quote="Richard Glueck I'm not trying to start a war, I'm saying that every creative resource for preservation should be exhausted before the artifact is consigned to fire.

Not a war - just a conflicting perspective. WE SHOULD TRY EVERY ALTERNATIVE TO DESTRUCTION IN THE NAME OF PRESERVATION.[/quote]

How can we justify spreading our resources even thinner when we aren't even taking adequate care of what we have already committed to preserve in perpetuity?

I think we're making the classical mistake of confusing our emotional reactionary response to any perceived threat with a genuine rational and purposely limited collections policy backed up with real plans and support.

If we try to preserve everything we spread ourselves so thin we end up preserving nothing in the process. Choose carefully,people, and create rational and supportable plans that can garner support.

These choices aren't hard, just necessary and unpleasant. We make them hard by endowing them with emotional baggage. Think triage.......

dave

My stock reaction to just about ANY complaint of any sort these days--logistical, ethical, political, mechanical, you name it--is "Present a viable alternative." You'll be amazed how often that stops the "discussion" dead.

Emphasis: "viable."

Want that signal bridge saved, or that boxcar or station or diesel? Give us the address of the back yard to move it into, and the billing address.

No? Okay, your check or credit card, please.

No? Okay, a passed hat full of money will suffice.

No? Okay, talk this philanthropist or foundation into covering the cost.

No? They won't go for it? So what do you want, anyway? ........... OOOOHHHH, I get it. You want someone ELSE to spend someone ELSE's money to achieve YOUR goals.

Sorry, that's by default not "viable."

I wish I had the ability to delete posts !

Calling all moderators !!!

Will you kindly clean up this thread, and restore it to the original subject?

The stories were going good, with some interesting items on the ''almost'' list.

My appologies to the 90% of the folks posting GOOD replies on here.

( this post has been edited 4 times )

RDG 179 -

Most threads unfortunately, run off on a tangent, just like this one. Would be nice if the moderators had the time to delete subsequent posts that veered off of the original subject. I don't think that that is going to happen. But anyway, I hear your frustration!

Les

RDG 179:

Remember that the same "cleaning up" process you want to use to delete posts you don't like could have been used by someone else days ago to delete your entire thread in the first place--because, after all, what's being discussed in theory isn't even preservation, but lack thereof.

Threads of "what coulda/woulda/shoulda been saved" seem, inevitably,to turn into accusations of nefarious wrongdoing, contempt, improprieties, and "evil" by the perpetrators (or, perhaps, "mis-perpetrators").

I myself lost two freight cars for which I had arranged preservation, simply because the scrap contractor called in made the mistake--and it was an honest one, I found--of starting at the wrong end of the siding to cut up the other cars. Someone could have easily turned that into some "conspiracy theory".

My point is that this topic was NOT deleted. There are 5 pages of replies and almost 4000 views at this time, which means the topic was being enjoyed,
and then the theme was changed by rants about conflicting opinions and then why things shouldn't be preserved unless backed by a treasure chest...
and that is a perfectly fine topic, but IN ITS OWN THREAD, not this one!

If you don't approve of the way the forum is being moderated, then let me assure you that there are many forums beside this one that are moderated (or not moderated) in much different ways than this one. Perhaps you would be happier there.

It is virtually impossible to find people who have the temperment, the time and are willing to subject themselves to the snarky criticism and abuse that the job entails. And posts like yours are one of the reasons that we cannot find people who are both able and willing to moderate ACCORDING TO OUR GUIDELINES.

You want to criticize the moderators? Please feel free to do so. Privately.