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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Randy Gustafson wrote:
As a final caution, many 'real estate professionals' are more than clueless about railroad right-of-way issues. Only a handful truly understand the mechanics of how railroads got where they are, or what 'abandoned' actually means. Your average railroad enthusiast is more knowlegable, justifiably questioning, and cautious about making 'the answer is' statements than a real estate agent that likes to reply 'oh, its reverted, its your property, the trains don't run there anymore, you own right up to the edge of the ties', ad nauseum. That's the source of many of hard feelings to railroad preservation - the property owner/buyer BELIEVED what somebody in real estate told them, and consider that to be a property warranty.

The job of the real estate professional is to get you to buy a house. If they outright lie, will they be caught? Is it legal to say it if they believe at the time it is true? Can they plausibly deny that they thought it was the truth? Is it too small an issue for someone to sue over? Did the homeowner go to a third party like the OP and get told what he wanted to hear? Or did the homeowner only HEAR what he wanted to hear???

In any case you are exactly right: once the homeowner's expectation is set, you're on a collision course with nastiness. I think heritage railways could do a LOT to improve that situation. Just the other day I was thinking we should have a whole page www.our-site-here.com/re/ which is specifically addressed to adjacent landowners and tells them the actual story. The short standard URL is so it can be put on signs on every crossbuck and property-line sign.


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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:28 am
Posts: 244
Location: Dallas, TX
To further confuse things, when a district/county/etc.line is changed, there may be overlapping lines that affect a property. When I was the manager of a bank in Perris, CA., a surveyor came by to ask if he could see our deed. When Riverside County was separated from San Diego County, an overlap of the county base line occurred and those two lines passed through our bank building. I am sure Paul Diegas, a certified surveyor and a member of Orange Empire, can relate some horror stories.

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Harry Nicholls


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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: Warren, PA
I freely admit I get cranked up on that issue. My wife, meaning well, once found a house for us to look at that backed into the local railroad. I really wasn't interested in living BESIDE the tracks, but looked anyway. Typical PA, ex-PRR/PC/CR situation.

A quick look told me that the previous owner had erected a new garage that was likely on railroad property at the back of the lot. I questioned it in depth and the agent told me that the property line was 'to the edge of that gravel with the train tracks on it'. Seriously??? I paced it off from all possibilities of a 66' ROW, and no matter how you look at it, it was an encroachment. I kind of lost it, went all over her about misrepresentation, and that's being polite. I've seen it firsthand. Oh, and she also misrepresented the number of trains (I knew 3/day, she said two a week), what was in them (I knew LPG), etc. Yep, this is how it starts.

I'm not sure what happened, but the garage is no longer there today. I'm sure somebody sure hates the railroad.


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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1502
Location: Henderson Nevada
A couple of thoughts...

The ultimate ownership can be complicated by how the land was acquired by the railroad. Federal land grants, particularly earlier ones had property rights reserved by the government in case of eventual abandonment. It was such a case that resulted in Alameda County acquiring the Southern Pacific (originally Western Pacific of 1862) line through Niles Canyon. That line is now used by the Pacific Locomotive Association's Niles Canyon Railway, with the Golden Gate Railroad Museum as tenant...

In California, it was not uncommon for a revisionary deed to be issued for railroad right of way... if the railroad abandons, the land reverts to the original owner, or heirs, or current holder of the original parcel... Farmers did not entirly trust railroad promoters, and this allowed them to support a desired railroad without simply signing over lands... This was the case for the right of way acquired by Bay Area Electric... the railroad wanted to abandon the line, but there was a pipe line, but the pipe line couldn't hold the right of way... The line was embargoed, which can lead to court ordered de-facto abandonment... It was easier for the UP to sell the line to the railroad museum, who continue to use it for railroad purposes, preserving the right of way for alternate uses (pipe line)

A friend was a surveyor working in Sonoma and Marin Counties... A survey location was described as the center of railroad's right of way... which assumed the rail line was centered in the right of way. But, the line had been built as narrow gauge, the dual gauged with three rails, then the 3rd (narrow gauge) rail removed... effectively shifting the railroad center line roughly 9" to one side... They had to find photos showing which side the 3rd rail was on, to identify the shift.

The last couple of times I was at the National Archive in College Park Maryland, using the ICC valuation maps, there were other researchers using the maps, trying to identify property ownership for various court cases...

Randy

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Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada, Retired
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 297
As a Registered Professional Land Surveyor in the States of Texas and North Dakota, I have one thought and one affirmation:

My thought is to seek advice from people who are experienced in your state. Be careful of taking advice on national internet forums from somebody whose experience is in a state on the other side of the country from you. I avoid giving advice outside the states I am registered in because the laws and regulations vary by state.

The affirmation is for the earlier comment, "It Depends". That is a regular answer for many real estate issues. Another favorite comment is, "This is the way it always is, unless the contrary can be shown".

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Andy Nold


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 Post subject: Re: Railroad Real Estate Legal "Basics"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:35 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: Warren, PA
There really are agreements and deeds that define this fee-simple deed or reversionary language on a parcel by parcel basis. The original landownder (dating back often into the 1800's) was the signer, along with the railroad at that time. If the railroad is still in operation, chances are the surviving railroad has the agreement somewhere even if the landowner can't find it. Your courthouse deed recorder may have the original, but often these are just a bear to find because of filing practices to ancient predecessor owners and railroads. Helps to be an historian. And if the parcel isn't being actively taxed, accuracy suffers.

What really blows it all to pieces is when the railroad is finally abandoned, for real. The railroad can issue a quit-claim deed washing their hands of it unless they have a fee-simple lock-tight deed document, but it's often up to the buyer to do a real title search. The railroad copy of the agreements may be lost, leaving only the courthouse records, such as they are.

When you're looking at a railroad line, you really need to be aware of the history of the region vs. the date the railroad arrived. The charter gave the railroad condemnation authority, how they decided to do it was up to them. If they could get it for a reasonable price as a purchase, they would. If the landowners figured they had the rich railroad where they wanted them, it usually went to condemnation. Some might sell, others took the payment and a reversionary clause. I've seen, at least in the east, a real distinction between pre-civil war and post-civil-war approaches; most of the pre-civil-war ROW seems to be fee simple and post-civil war is reversionary for our local area. It doesn't have to be consistent in any way by the railroad, but you should at least be suspicious if the railroad had to fight their way through a 'civilized' area that reversionary deeds may be typical.

One of the most unusual situations I've come across lately is the UP yard at Palestine, TX, which has a reversionary clause to the yard if it ever ceased being a 'headquarters', dating back to the International & Great Northern. City originally owns the land and 'gave' it to the IGN to develop the City. Post MP, UP wanted out. UP fought it and lost, and still keeps a real estate group there and a car shop today to hold the yard and main line property intact.


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