Here's the county's story about the bridge:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/166815004/Bri ... 2b3ir7gqxu

And a response from the railroad's "All Aboard for Ashokan" (Facebook) site:

"We got a $272,000 grant from Catskill Watershed Corporation to remove the Big Indian Bridge and other hurricane damage, but the county refused it.

"Apparently, it wasn't that much of an emergency at that time, but as they get closer to trail construction it is a matter of public safety.

"So the county got a chance to waste more taxpayer dollars AND the FOTCMRT [Friends Of The Catskill Mountain Rail Trail, the trail people] got another opportunity to hoodwink the public."

http://bridgehunter.com/ny/ulster/bh56116/

Decide for yourselves.

This is what we call "the cost of doing business" in today's world. Even a "real" business faces some of the same enemies every day. If you want to help run a tourist railroad or a railroad museum, don't hand your enemies, the NIMBY's the Enviros, the Trail people the sword they will use to slay you.

For every example of "no respect" you give, there are 4-5 other examples of museums and tourist railroads that operate themselves in an orderly manner, don't raise the ire of local politicos and who run their non-profit or for profit businesses in a way that should be the envy of all of us. Yes, a railroad museum isn't as "sexy" as a Wal-Mart or a pro sports team. It is what it is.

This is the framework we live in. Instead of bitching about it over and over, learn to live and thrive within that environment, adopt best practices, form ties with your community and actually do something positive. Your continued rants about how RR museums and the like get "no respect" is like if I still complained that I was too clumsy to play sports in school. I got over it and learned to deal with the environment and the tools at my disposal. You should do the same. Screaming "We get NO RESPECT!" over and over again does nothing, period.

Believe me, I appreciate everything you say, and I especially appreciate it coming from you. However, I have been trying just this sort of thing for 30 years or more, and it didn't work. Not only that, but it didn't work for any of the other serious rail enthusiasts in a preservation project we were involved in with the local "powers that be."

The cause? I would have to describe it as the effect of "old money." Some people have influence from it, sometimes it comes from "big new money" (as an example, there are people at Catskill Mountain who think a former Facebook man is giving strong backing to the trail people). In any event, if you are not one of the elite or elect or big wigs or big wheels where you live, you don't have much of a chance, if you have a chance at all.

I can't really complain too much about the "powers that be" in the project I'm thinking of (a roundhouse preservation project); they accomplished things we couldn't because they did have the influence and the pull. I like to say their greatest strength was that they weren't rail enthusiasts, but pretty good business people. At the same time, their greatest weakness or whatever you might call it was that they weren't rail enthusiasts, but only business people.

I'll give you another example. On this roundhouse project, most of the track had been removed. Partially to have the place look "right," partially to be able to have some rolling stock in the roundhouse and adjoining shop buildings, the rail enthusiast branch of this operation tried to talk the leaders into looking into have some track replaced. We came up with cost estimates, and a track layout, some technical specs, and even suggested the track be paved (i.e., like a streetcar line) so the area could be used for parking. What did we get? What did we get after helping to mow grass, set up Rail Days, set up displays, bring in outside displays, all sorts of other volunteer work that had been done for years? One of the leaders said to me, "What do you want that little track for? The railroad runs right by the roundhouse."

And this is not the only thing. Talk to the people in Hagerstown, who had their roundhouse taken down on what later was proven to be false concerns about bad water and pollution from that site. Talk to others who have tried other things in other towns (not railroad related, but we seem to get the worst of it), and see how often you hear this story that if the "old money" doesn't approve of something, if it isn't something this bunch has for its vision, it doesn't get done. Heck, I got this story from a business owner in another town who sees potential for where he is, but the "old money" doesn't see it, and so the things he wants to see (again, not railroad related) won't be done either. His was only about the fourth time I'd heard this in as many towns and as many months lately.

For myself, I am tired of "compromise" always being "This is the way it will be done, you have to give up what you want." That's how it has always come out for me, and others I know, and I am tired of it, tired of banging my head against the wall, tired of seeing them bang against the wall, too.

And I see this happening to the Catskill Mountain and the Adirondack Scenic, too.

Tell me I don't have a reason to be upset.

If you have accomplished things, and have become the pride of your town, or your county, or even your state, that's great--and I'm glad to see it. Really, I am; you are what we dream of, what we want to copy, what we want to emulate. But realize that you are also lucky, and you didn't have people just cut you off, or just wouldn't give you the chance. That happens, too--and there's not a thing you can do about it. Certainly I wasn't able to do anything, nor the others, and that was doing everything you've suggested.

I guess it boils down to location, not only as a marketing point, but as a place where you can be allowed to do what you want and need to do. Some places are just no good for that.

Whom do we believe?

If you had bothered to follow the goings on that have been well reported in the media, possibly even you could form the conclusion that the county leaders want the C.M.R.R. out, rail scrapped to line their pockets, and the trail in. I saw only ONE post about "not getting any respect" not "continued rants" as you suggested. Your statement ".....like if I still complained that I was too clumsy to play sports in school..." lends insight to your personality. If you were bullied, picked on, etc. I feel sorry for you, but you need to get over the anger and stop trying to take it out on other people wherever you can.
Here is a step in the right direction;

http://catskillmtrailroad.com/legaldefense.php

Why not donate a few bucks and see how it makes you feel?

In fairness to David, I have ranted about this in the past on other threads; those are what he is referring to, not just this one.

At the same time, that is the environment I've had to live in (and others, too), with the lack of results to show for it.

It's not limited to heritage railroads, either. Those who have proposed expanded Amtrak service, light rail lines, and the rest have had to deal with things like this as well. To some people, we have technology "from the 18th century" (yes, they think the 1800s were the 18th century), and that they should go back to their Lionel trains.

In any event, thanks for being a little more understanding--and I hope you've had better luck, too.

So... the county likely removed the bridge out of concern of undesired channel cutting etc. Whatever, however did they scrap the spans, which would add a tremendous cost to rebuilding the structure, or are they parked somewhere? They'll need something to put a trail through if they go that route (well if they're sincere in that).

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

If you had bothered to follow this forum with any regularity, you would know that the "we get no respect" is a common complaint/statement of the poster whom I was commenting on.



This would be a good time to point out that you are the one who has called me "troll" on this forum before. Who has anger issues and feels the need to call others names? Seriously, you miss the whole point. I used the simile to make the point that railway preservation exists within a certain framework. It will never have the mass appeal of American Idol or professional sports. Instead of complaining about those limitations, embrace them and live within them. Your attempt to play an amateur psychiatrist lends, combined with your previous rush to name-calling lends a lot of insight into your personality. You don't know me, know nothing of me personally, so please do not make uneducated guesses about my past and my mental state. It only makes you look ignorant.



I am pretty sure that making bad investments, whether in the for or non-profit sector will make nobody feel any better.

Cut it out, guys, before the moderators lock this thread!

Mike

I second the motion, and I recommend that Orpoto take note that Dave Wilkins is one of the moderators. . .

Orporto--again, I thank you for sticking up for the Catskill Mountain, and for me, but time to cool it a bit.

I'll also remind you that this isn't a typical thread, it's one for news on the railroad by one of the volunteers there; don't mess it up for him.

As for me, all I was trying to do was to make it known that sometimes we have to deal with people whom we can never please, and in some cases, they will frustrate you right from the start, and deny your opportunities, no matter what you do.

I wonder if I should start a thread asking how we deal with such prejudiced, antagonistic, and aggressive people who really, really want us to go away, indeed don't even want us within miles of them. I might be able to use the advice myself.

I don't live in the area, although as you can guess I've been following this, and keeping an eye on the opposition, too.

One of the things brought up on the Friends of the Catskill Mountain Rail Trail (pro-trail site on Facebook) is that other trails require new bridges now and then.

From another bike trail site; wonder how much this one cost?

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 140&type=1

This one ran to $3.1 million dollars. I think it might be close to what a highway bridge would have cost in the same location.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/arti ... en-October

Here's a thought: One of the complaints by the trail crowd is that a railroad costs too much to restore and maintain, especially if one is having to rebuild a bridge. This one, though, cost about as much as a highway bridge--and perhaps we have something there, perhaps something that shouldn't be a surprise. The man-hours (and fees) for surveying, mapping, environmental impact study, and design work should all be the same for a relatively standard bridge like this. Excavation for foundations and construction of piers shouldn't be that drastically different, either. About the only real difference might be the amount of steel you need to support locomotives vs. anything else. That suggests the cost of a railroad bridge might be only marginally higher than that of a trail bridge. Now, is there anybody in the bridge construction field who can confirm or correct this?

I fail to see what part of THE COUNTY OWNS THE RAILROAD AND THE LEASE PERIOD IS RUNNING OUT you do not get.

Whether you like that fact or not, or like or do not like what the elected officials are doing is irrelevant. In the end, the railroad including the right of way is [u]OWNED[/] by the County and they may do what they please. If the County violated their duties under the lease of the railroad to the CMRR, there are legal remedies available to CMRR under New York law. None of these remedies will grant CMRR a longer lease or magically give them title to the right of way.

In the end, CMRR knew the day they executed the lease, the County may not renew it. Whether that expiration of the lease is 3 minutes away or 3 years away, it appears as if it will not be renewed.

For all of the hard work of the CMRR's volunteers (which is not a non-profit, for some strange reason), time and options may be running out. Maybe it's time to formulate a "Plan B" lest the equipment doesn't end up cut into scrap.

It must be nice to hide behind a pseudonym, makes it easier to be a jerk to them and feign "feeling sorry" for them.

Bicycles are lighter than trains, but bicycle bridges can be costly because they often find that they need to make a statement. This one was 5.1 million dollars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSTi1NiH-LM

Why don't you two "gentlemen" continue your "discussion" over on the "Railfanning" heading of this forum? A noted elsewhere, this thread has been devoted for the longest time to the communications between members of the CMRR volunteers and reporting activities on the Catskill Mountain Railroad, and you are perverting those purposes because neither one of you will give up. Most of the rest of us, I think, are getting annoyed.

Mike