Stillwater F unit problems

Overmod · **Joined:** Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm **Posts:** 2492

I haven't seen discussion of this, although IIRC we have had at least one protracted thread on the subject.

Story in the Friday August 15th Stillwater Gazette. Apparently the city council saw children climbing on the locomotives and has now declared the engines a "public hazard".

Have not seen the actual language, but a Trains Forum poster noted with some indignation "They are saying that his engines sitting on HIS property are abandoned." Supposedly the city says it's an attractive nuisance whether or not on private property -- perhaps a fence will do the trick.

Apparently Paradeau has a deadline of September 29th before the city moves the locomotives. He indicated they were sold (to Iowa Pacific and Heritage Holdings) but apparently no arrangement to 'close' on the sale, let alone move the locomotives, seems to have been finalized.

EDIT -- Link to story here:

http://stillwatergazette.com/2014/08/17 ... m-removed/

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:26 am

The comment I added to the story:

Quote:

Here's an interesting question for debate:
If a crew and trucking company working for the locomotives' alleged purchaser were to show up tomorrow with cranes, trailers, etc. and start loading up the locomotives to ship them out as quickly as safety allows, would the city just cheer them on and stand back? Or would city officials be hounding them to fill out paperwork, pay for "work permits" and inspections and associated fees, insist they be trucked out at night with police overtime paid to "escort" them, etc.?
Further, if fencing the locomotives off temporarily until a sale is transacted is an unsatisfactory solution, where does the city propose to relocate the locomotives to on his behalf? Does the city maintain a storage location that has more than just "fencing" to protect its equipment? Is everything the city's public works department owns and uses protected from the public as a "public nuisance"?

joe6167 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:06 pm

Very interesting. Funny how one City (aka Guelph) DOESN'T consider a locomotive (6167) a safety hazard, but another city does...

Thanks for sharing.

Trainlawyer · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:37 pm

Quote:

“Just imagine what that would look like when the new trail opens up and everybody’s down there with their scissors to cut the ribbons, and there’s bunting and all of that, and there’s two big ugly trains,” he said. “It’s a public safety problem. It’s also an embarrassment. We’ve got to do something.”

"Ugly" is a public safety problem??

GME

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

I believe he is citing two different problems. One is the public safety problem as indicated by children climbing on the locomotives. The other problem is the fashion conflict between the antique locomotives and the new trail. They probably worry that the locomotives will make the progressive new trail look dated.

Dennis Storzek · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:35 pm

Seems to me they are likely following their abandoned vehicle ordinance. Typically, if you have an unlicensed automobile in your yard, it is "abandoned" in the eyes of the law (it's not parked, because without the license you can't legally drive it away). Your response is going to be that it's "stored", to which they'll respond that your property isn't zoned for storing vehicles. The whole thing is designed to keep residential or retail neighborhoods from coming junkyards, and I can't disagree with the concept.

Even though the units are parked on what used to be a railroad, I suspect that when the railroad abandoned, it lost the Federal preemption over local ordinances, and the property owner foolishly allowed his property to be zoned for a more restrictive use than allows outside storage of machinery, so now he's screwed.

p51 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:41 pm

Jeff Lisowski wrote:

The word "abandoned" doesn't mean what I think the city wants it to mean.

It's doesn't mean that for the public, too. Think of all the things you read on line being 'abandoned' when in fact they're just sitting until the onwer gets around to doing something with them.
There's a massive difference between, "Abandoned" (meaning they've left it with no intention of ever coming back and no care for what happens to it), and "I haven't gotten around to dealing with that yet" (meaning just that, they do care what happens to it, but don't have the means, money or time to fool with it right now).

rock island lines · **Joined:** Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm **Posts:** 487

Iowa Pacific / Heritage Holdings is alleged by the Galveston museum to have not honored a sale.
http://setexasrecord.com/news/296154-ga ... f-contract

IP has reported unpaid debts across the country:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_237 ... rss_viewed

Mark Trebing · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:15 pm

rock island lines wrote:

IP has reported unpaid debts across the country:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_237 ... rss_viewed

The story you are referencing is from August 20, 2013. That's a year ago. Is there evidence of a debt problem now? The article quotes Kevin Busath, Iowa Pacific's Vice President of Strategic Planning, "Within two or three months we should be current with everybody." Did that happen?

-Mark

rock island lines · **Joined:** Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm **Posts:** 487

Mark,
Well Pardeau just said he has not been paid yet.

Dennis Storzek · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:42 pm

Jeff Lisowski wrote:

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Seems to me they are likely following their abandoned vehicle ordinance. Typically, if you have an unlicensed automobile in your yard, it is "abandoned" in the eyes of the law (it's not parked, because without the license you can't legally drive it away).

What if you have a PNO (Planned Non Operation)?

In California, you can pay a smaller registration to keep it non operation but still registered.

The legal concept does not seem to exist in Minnesota. Anyway, the point is moot, since there is no "registration" for railroad locomotives.

The problem is really that the town wants the locos gone, and will continue to harass the property owner until they are. Look for the town to cite him for violating the sign ordinance next.

Dougvv · **Joined:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm **Posts:** 914

Hi,

The Yuppies or Nimbys are just upset.

You do not need a license plate for a locomotive so how can you determine if it is abandoned? In the 1990s I wanted a short term loan yo get a caboose for my property.

To get to my property, you have to travel about a mile or mile and a half on a Georgia Red Clay dirt road over grades that are almost 4wd only. The loan person said that a loan on a caboose could not be made since the wheels were on the caboose.

I offered to weld the wheels to the track (rails). The wheels were still on the caboose and no loan was possible. They just wanted any excuse to dodge the matter.

Doug vV

wesp · **Posted:** Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:26 pm

See also: Pemberton, NJ; Kingston, NY; and.....

I submit we need to realize that unmaintained, unsecured treasures like the F-unit mentioned here and the collections mentioned above are frequently viewed as junk by the general public. The Stillwater F-unit is another case of patience worn thin by the surrounding community. In a different circumstance the same could be suddenly true for B&LE 643, or the private collection of streetcars in Buckeye Lake, Ohio. At least the owner of the Sharks has the sense to keep the stuff stored indoors out of sight.

Wesley

buzz_morris · **Joined:** Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:32 pm **Posts:** 344

The Stillwater Gazette
August 25, 2014 at 7:16 am

Hearing set for Zephyr abatement appeal

David Paradeau has appealed an abatement order by the Stillwater City Council that gave him until Sept. 29 to remove two locomotives from the Minnesota Zephyr from his property at 601 N. Main St. The order, issued Aug. 7, cited safety concerns because the trains are free for children to climb on.

Paradeau initially said he would not appeal the order. The city council granted him a public hearing, set for Sept. 2. After the hearing, the council can decide whether to uphold or change its decision.

The Stillwater Gazette
Posted: 08/18/2014

When photos of people perched precariously atop the Minnesota Zephyr dinner train locomotives surfaced on social media after Stillwater's Fourth of July fireworks display, city officials decided something had to be done.
The Stillwater City Council earlier this month ordered that the two iconic locomotives must be removed by Sept. 29. If they are not moved, the city will hire someone to do the work and add the cost to Zephyr owner Dave Paradeau's property tax bill as a special assessment. …

Paradeau said the locomotives are being sold to Heritage Rail Leasing of Alamosa, Colo., the same company that bought the six dinner cars. The dinner cars were moved in March 2013.
Heritage has not yet paid for the locomotives. The company hopes to use the Zephyr cars and locomotives as a dinner-train operation but has been having financial problems, he said. …

Full Post at...
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... dcbd6.html

Wikipedia

On September 10, 2010 the Minnesota DNR expressed renewed interest in and laid out plans for the Minnesota Zephyr [4] In February 2012 the sale of the right-of-way was finalized to the Minnesota DNR for 4.37 million dollars. The sale to the DNR does not include the dinner train (engines and cars) itself or the Zephyr building. The rails and ties have been removed to prepare the right of way to be made into a walking and biking trail. The DNR currently has paved the first two miles of the trail starting from downtown Stillwater and will pave the rest of the trail as funds become available. The DNR is also planning to build a bridge over Manning avenue (County Road 15). The right of way is being considered as a route for a future light rail line into Stillwater.

In early 2013, Iowa Pacific Holdings purchased the train and to use on their Rio Grande Scenic Railroad subsidiary. In March, the dining cars were shipped by rail to Colorado with the locomotives being shipped later. As of September 2013, both locomotives are sitting in the parking of the Zephyr building.

AlcoC420 · **Joined:** Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm **Posts:** 270

I was told that the locomotives are going to be scrapped after Labor day.

This is from the party that is going to do the work.