Recently in this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37114, it was suggested that the Union 0-10-2 in Greenville, PA may actually be the 303/603 instead of the 304/604.

"Thanks for your comments. The report that the engine returned by the Missabe to the Greenville roundhouse for preservation was 603/303 is in the book published by Frank A. King "Locomotives of the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range". Mr. King worked for the DM&IR and also photographed their locomotives. Did he get it wrong? Possibly, although he was pretty meticulous of his facts. Take a look at the very first photograph in the referenced rrpicturearchives sequence of photos; the one that is in black and white and was taken in May of 1960 when the 604 was still up on the Iron Range. Note that running board has a little "jog" in it right about where the firebox starts. The engine now on display there in Greenville, doesn't have that jog. Why would they have removed it? Of course, I don't have an old photo of 603 (URR 303) to see if its running board was straight in that area. Anyone got a photo of that locomotive? Also, you say that you verified that the BLW c/n belonged to the 304 and not the 303, but the builders plates are missing on the engine displayed there in Greenville. They were on the locomotive when in service on the DM&IR, but removed. Who removed them? They don't appear to be on the locomotive when it was still in the B&LE roundhouse in Greenville before being put on display. Could the builders plates you saw been from another 0-10-2? Maybe the 604/304? And that corresponding number then painted on the engine? I'm not yet convinced as to what engine is actually on display. But I am willing to listen to some facts. To those who think I'm just nitpicking, I apologize for taking up the space.

Les"

This was of particular interest to me because this locomotive is one of my favorites, having spent much of my youth climbing around it and I still live only about 25 miles away. So today a friend and I took a drive over to Greenville to attempt to dispel the rumor that the 604 is not who she appears to be.

Fortunately for preservation's sake, but unfortunate for identification purposes, the locomotive has recently been completely repainted with a good thick coating. This does obscure the ID marks stamped in the parts but I did find enough to give a definitive answer to this question. Aside from the parts photographed, I found several more with either 304 or 604 stamped on them.

As to the bump on the running board, at the location where that bump was located, there is a new section of running board that extends back to the cab. A weld can be seen in that location. Whatever appliance was in that area was removed at some point with the running board being replaced.

I hope this settles the matter.

Rick -

Thanks for you and your friend acting as "Sherlock Holmes and Watson" and checking in to whether the 0-10-2 is really 603 or 604. Your photographic evidence is interesting and seems to confirm the engines identity. However, I hate to tell you the number of the other C&O locomotives parts that are on our C&O 2-8-4 #2789. One of these days I'm going to actually do an inventory!

Thanks again for your efforts.

Les

heh, its the same story with NKP 765, with parts from another engine is it really 766? or 763..or is it 7656763..........

The definitive number stamping would be that on the boiler shell, since running gear parts are mostly interchangeable. I saw this on a group of the Porter 36" ga. 0-4-0 fireless locos from Apache Powder Co. They owned 6 of them, Porter b/n's 6827-6829 bought new plus 7110, 7196, and 7197 acquired 2nd hand. I got to carefully examine 3 of them in Ohio some time back. Not one of them had a consistent set of rods as identified by the stampings. Some other parts were equally confused. One of the risks of "interchangeable parts" I suppose.

There should be a serial number (builders number) stamped into the steam dome, along with an ASME cloverleaf.

But you'd have to get any jacket and lagging off the dome sides to see it.

I won't challenge the evidence that the Union 0-10-2 is indeed the 604, but a noted by others, some railroads did swap parts around. While rebuilding the Southern 630, someone at TVRM with a handy piece of chalk kept track of such discoveries.

Alan Maples

To second Les' statement, when I helped prep C&O 2716 for its tow back to Kentucky from New Haven, IN I noted the rods were all from different locomotives, including 2789.

I don't know of a railroad that DIDN'T swap parts around. Parts were commodities.
Parts removed from a locomotive were refurbished and sent to the store department, where they were placed in stock for use on the next locomotive to need that particular item. This applies to almost everything except maybe the boiler and frame. Even tenders were swapped a lot.

Railroad mechanical departments had hundred of clerks who kept track of the parts, so if one failed, it's history and prior use could be determined. This was especially useful on things like axles, bearings, crank pins, wheels, etc, which were often cascaded down to other series of similar locomotives when their time or size limit was reached in it's original use. Only the most trivial items, such as nuts and bolts or high-use items like flues and valves and water glasses were not tracked from purchase to scrap.

To further my post above, the number stamped into the steam dome is the legal birth certificate of that boiler, and it will match the builder number of the locomotive, which in turn will tell you without any doubt or uncertainty which locomotive it is.

I'll have to concur with Mr. Penn above. Locomotives, particularly on large carriers, had parts mixed and matched as required to save money, and get them out the door. I think finding one pretty much intact would be a bit of an oddity. In our case, during the rebuild of Southern #401, we also kept a list of what we found...

401's Baldwin serial number is 10-36E1126, with #402 being the last of the class of 25 locos. Gary Bensman pointed out the above serial number on the cylinder castings for us back when we started this project, so we know we have mostly 401, not something else. We found the following other parts on 401, in class order:

10-36E1103 (#378) Main drivers and crank pins, (but NOT the axle)
10-36E1104 (#374) Left walschaerts link block (replaced with new part during rebuild)
10-36E1110 (#385) Left walschaerts link assembly (yes, THAT 385 at Whippany)
10-36E1111 (#386) L4 Driving box (Was the R2 box on 386)
10-36E1114 (#389) Driver wheelsets #1, #2, and #4
10-36E1119 (#394) L4 crankpin (replaced with new part during rebuild)
10-36E1121 (#396) Left valve chest, left valve stem guide
10-36E1125 (#400) Right back side rod, L2 pedestal binder
10-36E1127 (#402) Cab steam turret, right valve guide, right eccentric rod, right main rod.

The following parts are from other classes, but were identified with either engine numbers, serial numbers, or both:

<blank> (#293) Main driving axle, axle only. (Note first entry above)
6-32D520 (#1588) R1 driving box. Also marked LM (Left main) 386. 1588 was an 0-6-0
12-38-1/4D39 (#1305) Power reverse reach rod. #1305 was a 4-6-2

So, you can see there are some large parts of 401 that aren't (or weren't). And the wholesale replacement of much of the right hand side running gear would likely coincide with the big, brazed up crack in the right hand cylinder, bent pilot-to-smokebox brace, (we straightened) badly bent up radius rod (also straightened), and likely also the replacement smokebox that was on it.

Kent

We found parts from at least a dozen other engines when we rebuilt 1522. If you have access to the steam dome casting, check out the number stamped on it.

I'm done playing this game. No I'm not going to look for the boiler stamps. I am satisfied that this locomotive is the 604. I have identified 10 individual parts with either 304 or 604 stamped on them, an none stamped with any other locomotive number. Its time to let it go and realize that some author fifty years ago made a typographical error. There is no conspiracy here to renumber the 603 the 604.

Furthermore, comparing the practices of large roads with that of one that only had 9 of one type is a bit ridiculous. The Union only had nine of these locomotives, an it is unlikely that more than one would have been in the shop at any one time. This isn't the Pennsy with 425 K4s where a dozen or more would be in the shop at one time.

A rather snotty conclusion to the thread. I've gone back over it and didn't see anything that warrants that answer.
I'm glad you're done with this game, and sorry that we all offered a way to prove it.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Seems a bit out of character for you, Rick.

HOWEVER, a railroad doesn't need hundred of engines of the same class to be swapping parts around, nor does it need to have more than one in the shop at the same time.

Think about it: Where the heck did the parts in the store room come from? You think they didn't keep spares on hand? Especially when they had so few of that particular type.

Even backwoods shortlines with just 2 or 3 locomotives did it.

I wouldn't expect them to let an engine sit in the shop while they ordered or made new parts for it, or spend a lot of time and effort AND tie the engine up while they repaired or refurbished the individual parts that came off of it when it entered the shop.

We've always carried this locomotive as 604.

Someone brought up the question, has anyone looked at the number on the steam dome. BUT, that also isn't a guarantee. Surely some RR's swapped whole boilers from one frame to the other. So what part is the most important? In firearms, the receiver with the SN# is the registered gun, the rest of it are just parts.