It is. But it doesn't really matter how much money was spent; it matters how much money remains to be spent -- and for 1218 that's a considerable amount. Then what would you do, either for Norfolk Southern or for an outside agency like VMT, that 611 doesn't already do better for less expense?

I have some fairly detailed 'feasibility plans' for restoring 1218 to service; I also have one for 'boosting' the LP engine on 2156 to give higher effective road speed and improving the balancing to reduce augment at that speed. The problem isn't that "it can't be done"; it's that even if the owners gave permission to return the engines to service, what could be done with them that would justify the considerable outlay of funds and operating risks?

But provide the money, and the permission, and there would be little trouble putting together an effort to rebuild either one to serviceable condition...

That's an interesting thing.... what would make 1218 a better choice for a nonexistant steam program than any of the other mainline locomotives that are not booked for use every possible opportunity of their 15 year economic cycle? Certainly it is possible, and less mechanically difficult that Richard's own well developed and rationally managed park hulk project.

Maybe a bigger question is how do we create a large enough marketplace for mainline steam operation such that it is feasible?

Considering the N&W regularly operated the Y6 class at 50mph, which is faster than you can legally run with a steam engine on NS anyways, what would be the benefit to this? The old NS program of 50 excursions and 20,000+ miles a year isn't going to return, and with the climate these days, how often would you ever find a situation where doing major improvements above and beyond the normal and getting an engine "friendly" to mainline operation (updated brake stand, temperature sensors, roller bearings where possible, etc) would be something that would be justifiable in the long run? Just curious.

As said, the issue isn't finding a suitable candidate for operation. It's justifying the rebuild so that you don't have a cold engine sitting around in a building while boiler days expire.
Kevin

An excursion-length Amtrak-certified coach fleet is a start. Have we gotten to the point where multiple operators are trying to run trips at the same time and we are now in need of more cars? There seems to be an expanding interest in recent years of a lot of first class seats and fewer coach seats. That's a big change from the old days where you might have one or two first class cars on the end of the train. I can remember riding many trips where there was no first class section. The problem, of course, is renting the cars, and then deadheading them to your origin point.

Next step is to see if there is anywhere that would underwrite a policy so that two or more groups could band together to operate excursions would be worth exploring also---and I'm sure it has been. The cost decreases if you can amortize it over multiple trips, and justifying a policy just so that you can run 3-4 weekends a year is becoming difficult.

Those two would cut down some of the up-front costs, reduces ticket prices, which allows more people to ride the trains. Rising ticket prices are the biggest killer right now. At $150 a head, you've eliminated the old model of Mom/Dad/Kid(s) taking a family outing on the excursions. Sadly, I don't think there is an easy fix.
Kevin

How long were they in stationary service? A locomotive boiler is not the most efficient way to make steam given the realities of staying within the loading gauge.

U. S. railroading is currently undergoing another (possibly the last?) major route mileage shakeout from the decline of coal extraction and other reasons. Some of these lines are probably not going to be converted to, or bought by short-line/regional operators. I'm sure many here are familiar with some of the better preserved railways "across the pond", where not only the track infrastructure is preserved, but also the line-side infrastructure - towers, signal systems, stations, etc. (like say The Great Central Railway). I realize that saving and maintaining a rail line is not as "sexy" as saving and preserving a specific piece of equipment, but acquiring a reasonable length of heavy mainline railroad, either single or double-track (with sidings) that actually goes somewhere people might easily travel to, that could be made into a credible historic demonstration railroad, would be one way to give orphaned large pieces of railroad equipment a place to "stretch their legs". As always, money and fundraising is the major bug-a-boo to making anything happen, so no holding of breath over it. Something like IRM that is, say three-times longer, with turning facilities of some kind at each end, suitable for both electric and non-electric operations.

Paul,

Your post is too good and too important to be buried in a thread about #1218. You might consider starting a new thread for this topic.

You are right on the money that we are approaching a time when buying a decent sized stretch of well maintained mainline is going to be possible. Think of it as the next era of US heritage railroading and - as you noted - an opportunity for some UK-like heritage railroading in the states.

Any specific line-segment contenders for you?

Rob

Not only is this a good idea, but it needs to be expanded some:

1. We need at least three good sized lines, perhaps more, to make this feasible. One East, one Midwest, and one West:

a. East: Adirondack Scenic

b. Midwest: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic

c. West: ???????

2. Good Class One or shortline connections which would allow movement to and from the railroads;

3. A pool of 40-50 cars, with a good mix of climate controlled and open window heavyweights

4. Pool arrangements between all the participants.

Another option would be to buy a regional which has a healthy freight traffic base and excellent tourist potential. Yes, I do have a couple I could nominate out west, but I'm sure you guys can come up with roads in the Midwest and East to fit the bill.

I think as an industry it's time for us to mature and work together to make some good things happen. We can do it if we adopt the attitude that what we do is important and we want steam to thrive. We need a new sustainable business model in which everyone can benefit. Yes, there will be hurdles. Yes, it will cost money. But at the end of the day, those can be surmounted with all of us working together.

I think rather than try to build businesses that require people to transport themselves to our playgrounds, we need to gain a more universal track access that will allow us to take the show out on the road and find people where they live. Apart from AMTRAK, I'm unaware of any national private or public agency that has access to a lot of the network. AMTRAK has enough on their plate without getting involved with big steam. The only person who regularly posts here that has built national mainline tours doesn't post here much any more since his posts become the basis for others to attack him, and it was a different world when he was producing his shows.

I'm not saying impossible, but probably about as difficult to make happen as the idea of us all pulling together.

Not the first time something like this has been proposed before, or even partially done - think early Blue Mountain & Reading with the Hamburg operation in the late '80's, putting in a PRR signal bridge and some other features on a 40 mph line.

I have no clue where it might be done. It would have to be somewhere people could easily get to it, so a line deep in rural coal country probably wouldn't work. Maybe something like the Erie/EL Cleveland-Youngstown line, but that would have to be completely rebuilt. However, the idea - abandoned trackage between urban areas of some size - is the important part.

Hi,

It was my understanding that 10-15 years ago, the New Mexico Rail Runner (sort of a rapid transit system) was supposedly going to purchase AT&SF from ABQ to the Colorado boarder near Raton Pass.

As I understood it, regular passenger service was to be provided between Albuqueque and Santa Fe. The rest of the line was to be rented out to Amtrak and a way freight or two operated by the AT&SF.

The goal was to save the line from being torn up.

I never heard if this ever occured or what happened. I do not know if the deal fell through or if it was Rail Runner proposal that never occured. I seem to recall that it was to prevent the Raton Pass line from being torn up. I think it was BNSF that was considering removing the line at the time. Sort of like the D&RGW narrow gauge wanting to abandon the narrow gauge in 1968 and CO & NM stepping in to save part.

However, it would have been a long run for mainline steam on a true mainline.

Just think having 759, 844, 611, and other mailine steam pounding away on the ex-AT&SF. A DD40ax or other heritage diesels would have been an additional plus.

Anyone recall this proposal and/or know what happened to it?

Doug vV

Doug;

I believe that the effort to save the Raton Pass line is still ongoing and unresolved between NM and CO, and maybe KS as well. If I recall correctly, there is more trackage at stake for the Southwest Chief than just the part over Raton. That line is also the steepest mainline grade that Amtrak transits. I know that in the days when F40's handled Nos. 3 and 4, there were times when they had to cut the head end power briefly to maximize tractive effort to the motors for the climb, and that was with three F40's powering the train. So, we're talking about a very challenging line for any potential excursion operation. Although, this line was something in the back of my mind for my idea, most of the trackage to be abandoned is kind of in the middle of nowhere in terms of population centers needed to support a tourist operation.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread from start to finish as I had always understood 1218 went from Union Carbide to N&W/NS. Now I know this is not the case and that several people and years were involved in saving the 1218.

I do have a question though? Which of the three A's tenders got paired with 1218?

Robert

The three locomotives were backed in, cab to cab, if I recall. The tender may have been something residual, around the yard.

N&W was famous for playing "musical tenders", as well as "musical parts" during shoppings. Our M2, # 1118, had at least 3 and possibly more classes of tenders over the years, and we have found parts stamped from 2 other locomotives on her. As for the parts situation, the same holds true for 611 and 1218.