This book is on Amazon. "Colorado and Southern No. 9: One Short Season: The Ill - Fated Return to Service of A Narrow Gauge Locomotive". Is the text good and interesting?

https://www.amazon.com/Colorado-Southern-No-Service-Locomotive/dp/0990876713

I thoroughly enjoyed it. Lot's of details around its rebirth - But also a lot of history both before its short lived rebirth and after.

I've wondered what happened to the 9, anyone care to give an indetail look at why she only ran for a year?

We were in CO on vacation and drove over to Blackhawk/Central City and as we drove into town I heard her whistle. I didn't even know there was a steam engine there and lo and behold it was steamed up and running. Pleasant surprise. I never knew much about the operation or how long it lasted.

Hi Sou154,

There was a lot going on at the Georgetown Loop about the time C&S #9 was restored to operation.

Not to get into any arguments, The Ashby's had just lost the GTL concession to run the loop.

The Ashby's had several (4-5) ex-Westside Lumber shays and two 2-8-0s from IRCA (40 and 44 from Guatemala). (For further information http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,313723,313731#msg-313731).

The group who took over the GTL decided that C&S #9 (a 2-6-0) and a few diesels (B four wheel high axle loading steel mill industrial) was the way to replace the shays and 2-8-0s.

They beat the heck out of C&S #9. The great "Throw money at the problem" (or so it seemed) of steam on the Loop occurred. Basically Breckenridge got the C&S #9 in its worn out condition but cosmetically restored condition and their IRCA 111 2-8-0 went to the loop for restoration and repair.

Oahu (IIRC) #12 (2-6-2) was involved in this mess.

The politics of the GTL around 2000 was a very sad affair and a lot of people got burned by it on all sides.

The bottom line was that C&S #9 ran again but was "Rode hard and put up wet" by the owners. Her cars from the Chicago RR Fair of about 1940 I think are still on the GTL. C&S #9 was placed on display with an ex-C&S rotary snow plow and another car or two. The Ashby's Colorado Central/GTL rolling stock was all in one piece for many years but has now been and is being sold in bits and pieces. Ozark has some pieces 14-15 still listed.

Oh Well.

Doug vV

Actually, Doug.......

I was involved in both operations at GLRR. The Ashby operation had much more freedom of operation management and an excellent set of equipment robust enough to operate that line with a good reliability record, and a good local support network.

C&S 9 was stored unserviceable on site on a short spur - it was and is owned by Colorado Historical Society, owners of the railroad but not operators. After CHS and GLRR Ashby did not reach agreement on renewing an operating agreement, CHS looked for a different contract operator. I was not there at that time.

CHS contracted with Railstar, operators of a 2 foot gauge amusement line in new York State. Railstar believed they had an acquisition agreement for a right-sized 3 foot gauge steam locomotive in New Jersey when they contracted with CHS. That deal fell through, and the Oahu lightweight 2-6-2 was brought in to have some steam power to run the season, along with a 4 wheeled industrial centercab.

CHS always intended to "restore" C&S 9 at some point. CHS contracted with a shop in Colorado experienced in live steamers to do the C&S 9 job. The results were not what one might have wished....... especially insofar as the oil firing system and imported used appliances were concerned. I was there when it made it's inaugural exit under steam from the enginehouse - in fact I drove it out. The fire went out on the way out, a safety valve jammed open..... the air pump and governor only worked when they felt like it. Injectors? Let's not even go there.

After I moved on - I was just there to help get the line up and running, not for the season - Railstar did some additional work on 9 which left it in useable condition.

9 and the little diesel covered the operation after the Oahu broke a driving axle which had been welded on by a midwestern shop in the past unbeknownst to anybody in Colorado.

So, 9 was put to intensive use after nothing like the kind of restoration one would have wanted done before putting it into service - unquestionably it was well used before CHS acquired it in the first place. It's making it through as well as it did testifies to the in service care it got from Railstar during that period.

I next saw both the Oahu and 9 as kits of parts with a lot of the bigger parts buried in the snow. CHS contracted with a restoration company from the East to put the Oahu back together so i wasn't involved in that project. 9 was back - burnered due to a mistake made in inspection of the running gear - paint had not been removed from the hubs before doing NDT testing on the axle ends - scared of more axle breaking despite no noticeable or historical practice of welds on axles in 9. The inspectors were unaware of the use of keys between the axles and centers - under the paint the keys were misconstrued as cracks and 9 condemned for the moment.

That season the Oahu was worked unmercifully hard with insufficient substitute power available to cover it for doing time consuming heavier work needed - the Eastern contractor did reassemble her but the contract was limited and didn't include much that should have been done under better circumstances and without the interference of CHS in the specification / QC process. That season she cracked at the top of the RTS / Crownsheet weld and an emergency overnight repair was done. Another boilermaker brought out to make a repair spent a whole night screwing up a crosshead and wrist pin that wasn't part of their work instead. The brake system fouled and we had not gotten the spare rebuilt and certified distribution valve the Eastern contractor had been supposed to provide. The brake cylinder had been insufficiently lubricated in reassembly, and crushed the end of one of my fingers in repairing it in service. A lot of loose running gear constantly fought with maintenance of service, and finally a frame bolt cracked.

I wasn't there to see the resolution of this situation - family emergency got me back home in NC. So, I have nothing more to add at this point about what happened afterward.

Much has changed since. There's a different contract operator now with a much better set of equipment making good business and doing good work. I wish everybody who was and is involved well - it's a great but challenging railroad to operate.

Yes the C&S 9 was a sad story regarding it's operation but politics dictated and shear
lack of knowledge on Colorado Historical Society part and Lots Of Infighting caused
poor No.9 suffer because of it.Everybody wanted more of the piece of the "Pie"
(money) profits; ie. Because of this the Ashbys left in 2004 and the carnage began.
The new operator was chosen in late 2004 with only one viable operator.
For the most part they were not responsible for the 9s problems but some of the
employees added to 9s problem. Marlin Urich did the restoration of # 9 out of Strasburg
Colorado. Marlin is a good machinest and boilermaker but CHSs board at the time
had no good guidence and they didn't know a side rod from a side of beef on railroad
equipment period. And even to this day they are "penny pinchers". Steam railroading is not cheep but that doesn't seem to matter and even to this day they do well
what they understand water wheels and buildings.
I did work for Railstar but I was not there for the 9s operation. Even with the work done on 9 CHS cheeped out the process. How much can we get for this much work?
The 9s boiler was in serious condition and none of the major problems were addressed
nor repaired. The Cyl. needed re boring , valves were shot and at the time the cyl.
saddle was cracked which was later found. And the engine was agressively operated.
The locomotive could of been a good runner for the Loop used properly as an ocational
locomotive preserving it's history of the C&S there. But CHS thoght they could get both. CHS suffered very greatly from the lack of insight . Rail Star did not maintain
the equipment very much at all , blaming CHS and CHS blaming Rail Star.
When ED Nichols arrived as president in 2007 the end was in sight for Rail Star
and Mr. Mark Greybill then bought Rail Stars contract thus starting Historic rail Adventures in 2009. With the right management and the right guidence the railroad
has flurished. It did extensive work the the 2-6-2 #12 then traded the 12 for the Westside #9 again with extensive boiler work on the Westside shay 9. Now it has finished the former Central American 2-8-0 #111 almost in regular service. It has
also aquired ex Klondike Mines and White Pass #4 from Oklahoma which will replace the 12 eventually as a light tonnage locomotive as the 12 should have been used.
Too bad the C&S 9 could not have been under the Historic Rail Adventures operation.

Hi,

I just wish C&S #9 had been able to be used a few times a year as a special events loco.

Just to be sure, The mess at the C&TS was about 2000 (1998 and 2003 maybe?) and the GTL was 2004. I always get events during that era confused and mixed up - why I tried to be very brief.

Thanks for the better info.

And then the C&TS had the Lobato Trestle fire that cut the run short for a season and panicked many supporters who were not involved with the operations but saw the sky falling and the line scrapped due to the trestle being burned out.

I can not think of anyone better writing a the history of C&S #9 than Jason.

Doug vV

To add my two centavos worth... in the late 1980s, employees of the BN diesel shop in Denver tried to work with the CHS to restore #9 and her trainset (after we had been unable to get a standard gauge engine), to celebrate the 50th anniversary of this equipment being used to represent the Burlington Lines at the Chicago Railroad Fair. At the time we still had employees who had worked on the Clear Creek Division. (Brother, we had a guy that started in COMO two months before it closed.) BN wanted to find a way to write off the small car shop that had once been used to maintain the narrow gauge passenger cars, which had a drop table, overhead crane, air compressor, press, lathe, mill, etc. and this would have allowed it. (As it turned out, this was torn down to avoid paying tax on it.)

The unions made exceptions for employees to volunteer their time, and our diesel shop foremen were in favor of putting the equipment on standard gauge flatcars, which we could spot inside the big shop when we had room for an extracurricular project. This would have allowed deck level access from the shop ramps. BN liked the idea, and was going to underwrite it.

THIS WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR CHS. Instead they spent trainloads of tax money to screw up this project.

Please excuse me for getting slightly off topic...

As someone who consulted on two railroad projects for History Colorado (not associated with Georgetown and am still owed money... They changed the size of the paper that the report was to be submitted on late in the contract... ) and has watched this train wreck… there were layers of problems and buckets of blame… I note that I have been and am a government employee (not in Colorado) and have some understanding of how government contracts work, and why…

Early on the former contractor and local History Colorado employees got involved in local politics on opposite sides. It was a time of increasing costs for insurance and regulatory compliance, at the same time that conservative politics were looking to monetize government owned properties.

Later, History Colorado shot itself in the foot repeatedly, because of their contracting and purchasing system… and because of local politics. Simply, they contract for what they contract for then expect an outcome which might not be what they contracted for.

In the case of No 9, it appears that the rebuilder signed a contract to do certain work, but when more issues were found, History Colorado wouldn’t adjust/amend the contract. In their eyes they hadn’t contracted for specific work, but instead had contracted for a rebuilt locomotive… The result was that the locomotive was completed, with the work done that the contractor committed to, but not with all issues addressed…

At the same time, local politics exploded… the locals wanted a train… History Colorado needed to supply a train… in a time of crisis bad decisions were made.
History Colorado is a very unilateral organization, and a very political organization… both of which fueled the flames….

As your moderator, even as I feed the flames, we need to be careful of this discussion… it an too easily devolve into blame and name calling… The Loop is a wonderful historic site, and a great tourist train… and can get better…

I also note that History Colorado funds a large number of Colorado history projects... support that isn't common outside of Colorado.

Randy

I'm glad to see I didn't start an argument... one thing I should have said is that the guys who run the loop today, day to day, are a great bunch, under the most capable direction of Jeff Badger, and long time veteran Phil Johnson. I can promise big news from them pretty soon, but they will announce it when they are ready.

As a Colorado taxpayer, I feel that I have a right to bitch about "historic preservation" here. One more example I could cry about is the Central City/Blackhawk tourist operation. It was first reactivated by Lindsey Ashby in the 60s or 70s, using tourist type equipment, and I believe it operated for about 20 years (corrections welcomed). Then they moved over to the loop.

Again, I don't recall the exact date, I think it was around 1990, but a group of fellas relaid the track, fixed up engine 71 and the short combine, and got up and running again. One guy was a brakeman I had worked with often, Barry Allen, and the engineer was Floyd (never heard his last name). I believe (but won't swear on my Grandmother's grave) that he ran her in there and drained the boiler when the C&S parked her.

At any rate, it was an extremely beautiful restoration, and I was fortunate to see it ONCE. In my infinite wisdom, I thought everything was safe, that it would only improve in the future. I never dreamed for a minute that the inbreeders would RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN before the next season. They needed more casino parking...

For awhile, the locomotive and combine were displayed in an attractive, secure location by one of the giant casinos, and their appearance was impeccable. Unfortunately, when I last saw them, they were being slowly changed into a Disneyland looking type advertisement for said casino. There's lots of grant money being spread around up there if you know the right people.

I try not to think about it, except that I pity my friends up in Plume who have to work for that bunch...

I'm glad to see I didn't start an argument... one thing I should have said is that the guys who run the loop today, day to day, are a great bunch, under the most capable direction of Jeff Badger, and long time veteran Phil Johnson. I can promise big news from them pretty soon, but they will announce it when they are ready.

As a Colorado taxpayer, I feel that I have a right to bitch about "historic preservation" here. One more example I could cry about is the Central City/Blackhawk tourist operation. It was first reactivated by Lindsey Ashby in the 60s or 70s, using tourist type equipment, and I believe it operated for about 20 years (corrections welcomed). Then they moved over to the loop.

Again, I don't recall the exact date, I think it was around 1990, but a group of fellas relaid the track, fixed up engine 71 and the short combine, and got up and running again. One guy was a brakeman I had worked with often, Barry Allen, and the engineer was Floyd (never heard his last name). I believe (but won't swear on my Grandmother's grave) that he ran her in there and drained the boiler when the C&S parked her.

At any rate, it was an extremely beautiful restoration, and I was fortunate to see it ONCE. In my infinite wisdom, I thought everything was safe, that it would only improve in the future. I never dreamed for a minute that the inbreeders would RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN before the next season. They needed more casino parking...

For awhile, the locomotive and combine were displayed in an attractive, secure location by one of the giant casinos, and their appearance was impeccable. Unfortunately, when I last saw them, they were being slowly changed into a Disneyland looking type advertisement for said casino. There's lots of grant money being spread around up there if you know the right people.

I try not to think about it, except that I pity my friends up in Plume who have to work for that bunch...

Steven,

If you purchase the book, the author is a contributor to RYPN. You might try to con him into signing it. :)

Dan Quiat

I saw #71 in operation at Central City in August 1987, though it was an operation I had no prior knowledge of and I was rather surprised to see it.
Looking at the one (poor) photo I took of it - I didn't take a ride though - the "passenger car" in use was a wooden gondola with a roof, rather than a purpose built car like a combine.

Hi,

If I recall correctly, there are currently TWO (2) C&S 71s in Central City. One is originally C&S and the other is a Central American 2-8-0.

I seem to recall both are used as casino advertising.

Doug vV