If you haven't seen the August 9th RyPN Brief, click the link below and take a gander. It accounts a huge trade between the Western Railway Museum and the Portola Railroad Museum.

The trade imporves both museum collections and speaks volumes towards what can be done with a little cooperation once the focus on a museum is established.

Kudos, guys!

http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/august2003/030809.html
rdavis@rypn.org

Another view. Link below



http://64.226.170.141/cgi-bin/Interchange.pl?read=27912

Thanks for that link, I couldn't find it yesterday. In reference to "All-Service" museums with operating steam, diesel and electric, I think we should consider some museum collaborations as all-service museums. The Electric City / Steamtown operation comes to mind, and perhaps the EBT / RTY combination as well. With the recent progress in St Louie, perhaps NMOT could soon be added to the list. Might include the Indiana Museum of Transportation and Communication and the Ohio Ry Museum as All-Service museums that are not so evenly balanced? Could the MTM group in the twin cities be added to the list, even though their collections are scattered at different locations?
Just some thoughts, no criticisms implied.

The saddest thing of all is that BAERA's biggest events at Rio Vista Junction were their Spring Railway Festivals. Steam, diesel and electric and proud of it then.

And in the greatest moment of any museum demonstration railway, streetcars and interurbans were used to carry guests from the Museum entrance to the mainline passenger trains -- steam and diesel -- just as they may have done in actual service.

I'll always mourn the lost potential and the small minded ego's that put an end to it all.



teamzurg@earthlink.net

> The saddest thing of all is that BAERA's
> biggest events at Rio Vista Junction were
> their Spring Railway Festivals. Steam,
> diesel and electric and proud of it then.

> I'll always mourn the lost potential and the
> small minded ego's that put an end to it
> all.

I think it's time for a reality check. Small minded egos had nothing to do with the changes at the Western Railway Museum. A little history is in order.

Back in those days of old the name of the Western Railway Museum was "California Railway Museum."

Then the State of California built the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento about forty-five minutes driving time away from the California Railway Museum. Because of the name confusion, the older museum was forced to change its name to Western Railway Museum. Something about a 900 pound gorilla comes to mind.

The Western Railway Museum discovered that the state museum had effectively pre-empted large amounts of railroad history.

Railroad museums do not exist in a vacuum. Like it or not they do compete with each other for displays, visitors, and for funding. There is no way a small private association can compete with a large state-funded museum in the same area. The only way the small museum can continue to exist is to do something the large museum does not.

The state museum does not include electric railroads. The Western Railway Museum Board of Directors decided to emphasize electric railroads.
The mission statement was changed accordingly. Steam and diesel were phased out.

If the state museum never had been built, you probably would see steam and diesel today at what would still be called the "California Railway Museum."

Those organizations that cannot change with the times will be fated to die.



fkrock@pacbell.net

> I think it's time for a reality check. Small
> minded egos had nothing to do with the
> changes at the Western Railway Museum. A
> little history is in order.

> Back in those days of old the name of the
> Western Railway Museum was "California
> Railway Museum."

> Then the State of California built the
> California State Railroad Museum in
> Sacramento about forty-five minutes driving
> time away from the California Railway
> Museum. Because of the name confusion, the
> older museum was forced to change its name
> to Western Railway Museum. Something about a
> 900 pound gorilla comes to mind.

> The Western Railway Museum discovered that
> the state museum had effectively pre-empted
> large amounts of railroad history.

Not close, not even a cigar butt. The steam and diesel departments were deliberately excluded from the long range planning which precipitated this sea change to the Museum's focus.

There was a huggy, feel-good retreat for a selected group where everybody expressed their ideas, but opinions contrary to the premeditated agenda were dismissed, supressed, or ignored. There was *NO* substantive, give and take debate. Nor was the general museum Membership allowed to vote on anything. It was all rigged and manipulated by a closed group of about 8 individuals.

They have also contrived to stifle all dissent.

> Railroad museums do not exist in a vacuum.
> Like it or not they do compete with each
> other for displays, visitors, and for
> funding.

Running trains which garner $75k per year isn't funding? Nor did the Wildflower trains run concurrently with CSRM trains, which were later in the year.

>There is no way a small private
> association can compete with a large
> state-funded museum in the same area.

State largess to CSRM is a common misconception - - California is broke at the moment, just in case you don't read the news. The State Museum has been regularly underfunded by the Department of Beaches and Parks for over a decade. If you really must think in terms of going head to head with the State museum, Rio Vista's Wildflower trains were successful competition. However, the notion of competing with the State was *never* on the minds of all of those who worked the trains. They were just having a good time and enjoying the satisfaction of making a tidy amount of money for the Museum they liked.

> The
> only way the small museum can continue to
> exist is to do something the large museum
> does not.

Bogus logic, refuted by the successes of the Wildflower trains. What has always made Rio Vista different from the State is that it's a hands-on, volunteer run Museum, something the State is not. I know of one or two paid professionals in the ARM railway museum world who didn't recommended making this change.

With a collection of nearly 115 pieces of equipment, Rio Vista was one of the lager ARM museums, unless you're referring to certain people's intelectual capacity.

> The state museum does not include electric
> railroads. The Western Railway Museum Board
> of Directors decided to emphasize electric
> railroads.

Notice: "the Boad changed" the mission, the membership was excluded from the process. They also squandered something like $600,000+ in the process of creating the Brave New Trolley Museum.

> The mission statement was changed
> accordingly. Steam and diesel were phased
> out.

Despite many promises to grandfather (i.e. keep) the steam and diesel departments.

> If the state museum never had been built,
> you probably would see steam and diesel
> today at what would still be called the
> "California Railway Museum."

> Those organizations that cannot change with
> the times will be fated to die.

Well, this is only too true. You need to keep this in mind because your streetcars are *not* as marketable a commodity to the fare paying public as steam and diesel are. "Mommy, we've already ridden the bus, where's the train?"

Just ask IRM and OERM.

> (snip) You need to keep this in mind because your streetcars
> are *not* as marketable a commodity to the
> fare paying public as steam and diesel are.
> "Mommy, we've already ridden the bus,
> where's the train?"

> Just ask IRM and OERM.

Sure, Pete. That's why we're both planning to phase out our electric operations in the near future. Thanks for asking.

> Sure, Pete. That's why we're both planning
> to phase out our electric operations in the
> near future. Thanks for asking.

If I hadn't heard that comment about "the bus" on many occasions while being part of the team running streetcars and interurbans (as well as steam and diesel trains) at Rio Vista, I might have a similar opinion.

There was room for all of the interests, but as pointed out, the folks in power chose otherwise, and the membership never had a say in the matter. That is fact, not fiction.

Again, it was a great moment when they all worked together. Using the streetcars and interurbans to carry passengers to a transfer with the steam and diesel trains was something that we all should have been proud of. I know I was.

It is too bad that won't happen again at RVJ.


teamzurg@earthlink.net

> We have just seen a wonderful example of Orwellian logic from some museum members who did not agree with changes at the Western Railway Museum. This probably is not the proper forum for this discussion, but some items may be of interest to the larger rail preservation community. Some statements made should be refuted.

The decision to change was made by the Board of Directors. The Board is elected by members of the Association. Any person who joins the Association as a full member is eligible to vote in the next election. No weighted voting scheme is used. Board elections were hotly contested when the changes were being made.

The statement has been made that the WRM wildflower trains made money. Wrong. The wildflower trains are not running today because they did not bring in enough money to maintain seven and one-half miles of track and pay for the variable costs involved.

The Board decided to make only those repairs to the track needed to keep it open then discontinue operation when safety became marginal. This was a deliberate decision to extract money from the track before mother nature did. This is exactly the same situation as organizations that are running the life out of their steam locomotives without putting money in the bank to pay for that major overhaul in the future.

Financial problems of California today have absolutely no bearing on decisions made in the past about the mission of the Western Railway Museum. The state may raise the ticket prices at the State Museum but it is not about to close.



fkrock@pacbell.net

> If I hadn't heard that comment about
> "the bus" on many occasions while
> being part of the team running streetcars
> and interurbans (as well as steam and diesel
> trains) at Rio Vista, I might have a similar
> opinion.

> There was room for all of the interests, but
> as pointed out, the folks in power chose
> otherwise, and the membership never had a
> say in the matter. That is fact, not
> fiction.

> Again, it was a great moment when they all
> worked together. Using the streetcars and
> interurbans to carry passengers to a
> transfer with the steam and diesel trains
> was something that we all should have been
> proud of. I know I was.

> It is too bad that won't happen again at
> RVJ.

Oops, let me clarify here.

I did not mean to take any position one way or the other on Rio Vista, past, present, or future, or decisions made by its Board, etc. Unfortunately, I've never even been there, although it's at the top of my to-do list, and most of what I know about it I learned from the conflicting statements made on this board.

I just thought the statement that the public has little interest in trolley operations, and "just ask IRM and OERM", was curious, to say the least. IRM's experience has been just the opposite, and I'm sure the Orange Empire guys would agree. There are also many successful purely trolley operations around.

Again, I didn't mean to get involved in a conflict over WRM's direction. Sorry.

This thread is teetering towards a bickerfest... please help sway it back to the original topic... the trade.

Whether or not everyone at WRM was on board with the Board decision, it was made and the museum evidently is moving forward with a plan to focus its efforts.

In general, that is usually a positive thing. Time will tell.

It is apparent that WRM is serious and the trade with Portola certainly has the earmarkings of a very serious and well-planned deal. From the thousand-foot view, it is hard to argue with another WP F-unit going there. The idea was mentioned that the F-unit is a memorial to the man who saved it... certainly, is no less a memorial in Portola. As for the other controversial piece, the SN GP7, well, I think you could make some arguments either way but I don't know the details, so I am not inclined to judge.

It may seem lame, but the answer to many ill feelings when such moves are made is to get involved with the board or management. You might be surprised how welcome a new face will be.

It is also hard to manage bitterness when donated items are traded or sold-off. In my personal non-profit experience, I make sure that donors understand the item being donated will be used as seen fit... anywhere from cornerstone to eBay.

Donors sometimes withdraw the item, but that is a better result than silently honoring an unrealistic expectation.

My two cents...

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

> This thread is teetering towards a
> bickerfest... please help sway it back to
> the original topic... the trade.

> Whether or not everyone at WRM was on board
> with the Board decision, it was made and the
> museum evidently is moving forward with a
> plan to focus its efforts.

> In general, that is usually a positive
> thing. Time will tell.

> It is apparent that WRM is serious and the
> trade with Portola certainly has the
> earmarkings of a very serious and
> well-planned deal. From the thousand-foot
> view, it is hard to argue with another WP
> F-unit going there. The idea was mentioned
> that the F-unit is a memorial to the man who
> saved it... certainly, is no less a memorial
> in Portola. As for the other controversial
> piece, the SN GP7, well, I think you could
> make some arguments either way but I don't
> know the details, so I am not inclined to
> judge.

> It may seem lame, but the answer to many ill
> feelings when such moves are made is to get
> involved with the board or management. You
> might be surprised how welcome a new face
> will be.

> It is also hard to manage bitterness when
> donated items are traded or sold-off. In my
> personal non-profit experience, I make sure
> that donors understand the item being
> donated will be used as seen fit... anywhere
> from cornerstone to eBay.

> Donors sometimes withdraw the item, but that
> is a better result than silently honoring an
> unrealistic expectation.

> My two cents...

> Rob

Just a quick observation about the WP 917. The Union Pacific chose to give the two they had left to the two online museums, Portola (921) and RVJ (917). The State Museum already was given the 913 by the WP, and the Pacific Locomotive Association got the 918.

As the premier first generation mainline diesel locomotive, the EMD F-unit makes a fine comparision to other items in BAERA's collection, including the Western Pacific Mikado 334 and the Sacramento Northern freight motors 654 and 652.

It's kind of like having the horse car that was replaced by streetcar, and then having the streetcar that was replaced by the bus, and then having the bus that replaced the streetcar. (BAERA had the bus -- Key System, but they gave that away, too!)

BAERA had the opportunity to interpet the electric railway in California by showing the before (steam), during (electric) and after (diesel) in a way that few other places could. Even with that as a focus, there was room for every interest.

Truth is a lot stranger than fiction, and it doesn't get more stranger anywhere else than it does at BAERA.



teamzurg@earthlink.net

The question arises as to the future status of WP steam locomotives #94 (4-6-0) and #334 (2-8-2).

Given the current "management policies" of WRM, how long until these pieces are vended to other parties?

WRM has previously "traded" other steam locomotives for rail, so how much rail are they expecting for these two locomotives?

Bob

Robert19024@aol.com

It is clear that the decision to focus Rio Vista on interpreting electric traction has caused a bitter rift in the organization. I am sorry to see that rift carry over onto the Interchange. It's certainly not productive for the rest of us to see internal battles re-fought in this forum.

I beleive a similar rift happened at Warehouse Point in CT when they made a similar decision to deaccession non-electric railway equiptment.

From where I sit, I commend both groups for their commitment to a tight focus in collections management and interpretation. Yes, there are other ways to organize collections and other decisions could have been made. But the decisions that have been made make a lot of sense to me, and seem to conform very well with ARM's Recommended Practices.



eledbetter@rypn.org

When I defended my final paper for my Master's degree I also had to answer a series of oral questions before a panel of three professors. The notion of "corporate culture" was one of the big topics in grad school at the time, and I was asked to give an example. So I used life at National Capital Trolley Museum during the 1970s. We had a very business-minded volunteer board overseeing a typical first-generation trolley museum. There were continued tensions between the board and the so-called crew "down the hill" who ran the shop and maintained the cars. I gave examples of political issues facing the Museum at that time, many of which generated the same dynamics like the trade discussed above, and ended by saying that in the midst of this we hosted 20,000 annual visitors. Fascinated by this example, the panel began exploring the Trolley Museum issues further instead of discussing my paper!

We continue to face collections issues at National Capital Trolley Museum, but have adopted a general plan and a collections policy to guide our decisions. In spite of that we too get into discussions over potential acquistions from time to time and not everyone has come away happy. Just ask the folks who were involved in a lengthy debate about acquiring a PRR MP54 in the early 1980s! And then there is the saga of trying to deaccession our Berlin car BvG 5954 in the early 1990s. We did not acquire the MP54 and the Berlin car is still in the collection with a new coat of paint. Both were wise decisions when viewed in the rear view mirror. Now about those by-laws that contain voting by shares.....oh, nevermind.

Wesley