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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:20 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 178
Pegasuspinto wrote:
OK, I should ask for clarification:

Part 209 appendix A says an operation is not insular if "At grade rail crossing" or "bridge over public road" is in use.
On the first one, they take to time to list BOTH a "public highway grade crossing" and a "At grade rail crossing". Part 209 does not appear to define "Grade Crossing", but part 234 does-sorta. It defines a "Highway-Rail Grade Crossing" and a "Pathway Grade Crossing", to me that would imply that just a plain "Grade Crossing" would be both. A search in 234 makes it appear that only in a few instances is a highway crossing regulated different then a pathway crossing. So when I say footpath, I mean a "pathway grade crossing", not a illegal crossing over your line.

On the second one, we now have to define "public road", I don't see where that specific term is defined, but "road" has been in use long before Motor vehicles, and could be defined as any corridor of transit.


A "grade crossing" is where two railroads cross each other at grade, no roadway or highway involved.

Regarding "public highway-rail grade crossings. No specific FRA definition that I am aware of, but in most cases, a public road is a street, road, highway, etc. maintained by a town, city, county, state, etc. and normally would be under the jurisdiction of the state.

In my experience, FRA will look at these on a case by case basis to make those determinations.


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:46 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1832
Location: Back in NE Ohio
So, even though it's under 24" ga., would something like the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch 15" "Light" railway be considered insular in the U. S. because it has multiple grade crossings?


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:53 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 777
"insular" means in this case "relating to an island" or a better word might be 'isolated'. Non-insular would be WITH road crossings, insular would be WITHOUT.


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:21 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
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Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Aug 29, 2024 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:08 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
For railroads that do not fall under FRA jurisdiction there is the ASTM Standard Practice for Permanent Amusement Railway Ride Tracks and Related Devices, F2960-16. While it does not carry the weight of law it does provide a good basis for a set of standards for the smaller railroads.

I have been working on our own set of track standards for the J&L Narrow Gauge. Since we are basically a standard gauge railroad (minus 32 1/2") using the AAR narrow wheel profile and standard gauge track components, I decided to take the FRA Track Safety Standards, strip out anything that does not pertain to our operation and organize the rest into our track standards manual. For instance, there is only one class of track, nothing on CWR, Gauge Restraint Management System, concrete ties etc. The draft document contains the spirit of the FRA standards and will be much simpler to use for our operation. I have also had to do the math to create the new dimensions for check gage, guard face gage etc. and make sure everything meshes with our standard for wheels (back to back distance etc.)

Once I get the document finished I will make it publicly available as a reference document for others who are on the heavy end of 24" gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:05 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
Posts: 320
Rick Rowlands -
Great move on getting some sort of standard established, and having them based upon an industry standard. This is probably about the smartest move someone could take.

I've worked with a number of industries trying to do the same, and some had only a "fix it when it breaks" standard without any definitions of broken. In at least one case, it didn't stand up in a court trial about an injured employee. Having some clear standards that you can explain where they came from will help legally, and even more important, on a day-to-day basis as you work to maintain the railroad.

If I can help in any way, just post....

Bart Jensnings


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:39 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Rochester, NY
Rick Rowlands wrote:
For railroads that do not fall under FRA jurisdiction there is the ASTM Standard Practice for Permanent Amusement Railway Ride Tracks and Related Devices, F2960-16.


Thanks Rick, these ASTM standards look like a valuable resource for the track gang at our little insular operation. Did the ASTM ever develop anything for inspection and maintenance of on-track equipment? (I did some searching and haven't found anything.) Similar to you, I've been working on developing an inspection/maintenance program based on FRA standards. It would be excellent if there is already something published, similar to ASTM F2960-16.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:16 pm 

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Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Aug 29, 2024 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
Joe,

I think they are also working on standards for operations, rolling stock as well as for steam locomotives. Only the track standards have been finalized so far.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:29 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:27 am
Posts: 143
The ASTM has been working for quite awhile on the steam locomotive standard, which is nearing completion. They are also working on an operations standard and have a track standard that I worked on.

The locomotive standard is based on 49 CFR, Part 230 though there are many differences since the ASTM Standard applies to all steam locomotives, regardless of size. It has been a challenge because not everything scales down.

As far as who it will apply to, it will be anyone within a jurisdiction that adopts the ASTM Standard and who is not subject to FRA. Unlike FRA who writes the rules and enforces them, the ASTM is just a Standard with no enforcement powers. Enforcement is left to whatever jurisdiction adopts the Standard.

That's about as simply as I can explain it.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
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MD Ramsey wrote:

A "grade crossing" is where two railroads cross each other at grade, no roadway or highway involved.


I have never heard the term “grade crossing” used except to refer to the at-grade crossing of a railroad with a public road.

What you are referring to is called a “crossover” and/ or “diamond”


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:12 am
Posts: 576
Location: Somewhere off the coast of New England
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
MD Ramsey wrote:
A "grade crossing" is where two railroads cross each other at grade, no roadway or highway involved.
I have never heard the term “grade crossing” used except to refer to the at-grade crossing of a railroad with a public road.

What you are referring to is called a “crossover” and/ or “diamond”
Caboose, van, waycar, or cabin?

There are three basic type of crossings (I'm excluding bridges and tunnels over or through terrain features here). They are below grade where the passer passes under the passee, at grade or level where the passer and the passee are at the same elevation, and above grade or over grade where the passer passes above the passee. The passer and passee can be any mix of highway, footpath, railroad, pipeline, or canal (though very rarely will a canal be crossed at grade) and it does not matter whether one or the other is public or private. I have driven on highways where a river or stream was crossed at grade. The usual term for this is a ford.

Railroad grade crossing usually means either two railroads or a railroad and a highway. What is important to remember is that it can mean either. There is one government agency which refers to Rail - Highway grade crossings and another headquartered in the same building which refers to Highway - Rail grade crossings.

Now if I haven't adequately confused you yet, may I suggest that you drive your car through a Double Diamond interchange...

GME

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Last edited by Trainlawyer on Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:04 pm
Posts: 178
Location: San Jose, CA
Linn W. Moedinger wrote:
The ASTM has been working for quite awhile on the steam locomotive standard, which is nearing completion. They are also working on an operations standard and have a track standard that I worked on.

The locomotive standard is based on 49 CFR, Part 230 though there are many differences since the ASTM Standard applies to all steam locomotives, regardless of size. It has been a challenge because not everything scales down.

As far as who it will apply to, it will be anyone within a jurisdiction that adopts the ASTM Standard and who is not subject to FRA. Unlike FRA who writes the rules and enforces them, the ASTM is just a Standard with no enforcement powers. Enforcement is left to whatever jurisdiction adopts the Standard.

That's about as simply as I can explain it.


Here in California, park railroads fall under the oversight of DOSH, Department of Safety and Health. Since there is no distinct section for railroads, DOSH uses sections pertaining to amusement parks. As a result, there has been confusion on how particular language is enforced in railroad applications…interpretation of which differs with each inspector.

For instance at amusement parks, for every operating day when a new piece of equipment is added to the ride, it, and anything coupled to it, should go through an entire ride cycle…empty. Not a problem for a 60 second roller coaster ride; however what about an insular narrow gauge steam powered railroad that is an hour and half long and going up and down heavy grades?

Accepted ASTM standards for insular railroads will be a great start and hopefully, CA-DOSH will integrate.


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 Post subject: Re: FRA Non-Insular Tourist Railroad Safety Jurisdiction Sco
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:44 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 178
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
MD Ramsey wrote:

A "grade crossing" is where two railroads cross each other at grade, no roadway or highway involved.


I have never heard the term “grade crossing” used except to refer to the at-grade crossing of a railroad with a public road.

What you are referring to is called a “crossover” and/ or “diamond”


From the General Code of Operating Rules (GCOR) - "Crossings at Grade
Crossings that intersect at the same level."


Any reference to a crossing at grade with a road, although nor defined, is called a "road crossing" in GCOR.

FRA also just clarified this definition in the revised Part 219 regulation as it relates to side collisions: "Side collision means a collision when one consist strikes the side of another consist at a turnout, including a collision at a switch or at a railroad crossing at grade."


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