Can you imagine how much larger late era steam locomotives would have been in the US if the 7' gage was standard?

thurnrob@hotmail.com

> 42"/3'6", sometimes called
> "Bastard Gauge", several streetcar
> companies: Los Angeles Ry, Portland OR, and
> Denver CO. The San Francisco cable cars run
> on this gauge, and Orange Empire has
> 42" and dual gauge track for its LA
> collection (and also a tram from Kyoto and a
> cable car that's lost its grip).

There were also some smaller streetcar operations that used the 42" gauge. One of these was Santa Barbara; this later converted to standard. Also probably some horsecar lines that never electrified appear to have been built to 42" gauge.

The Kyoto tram lines were built to the same 42" gauge that the mainline steam railroads in Japan used.

42" gauge was also the mainline gauge on Luzon in the Philippines.

Brian Norden

> If we include electric railways, we have
> quite an assortment:

> 48"/4' at least one trolley company and
> one steam RR that ran on a pier with the
> supports at 4 foot spacing.

In San Antonio, Tex., the passenger trolleys (San
Antonio Public Service) were 4', while the freight
trolleys (Texas Transportation Co.) were standard
gage.
Tourist line Carroll Park & Western in
Pennsylvania was 4', because their first loco
came from a coal mine of that size, which was
also popular in Welsh mines.

> 4'10" to 4'11" St. Louis (until
> 1966) and Toronto (still running)

That's about 1-1/2 metres metric!

Altoona & Logan Valley, Pennsylvania trolleys were
5' 3".

> 5'6" Bay Area Rapid Transit, supposedly
> went to wider gauge for stability, or just
> to be different.

Or to be Iberian (Spanish & Portugeese)?

TyburnRR@cs.com

One more correction: five foot gage lines were predominant in the South until around 1886. Some lines converted directly to standard gage while others converted to a 4'9" gage. The five foot gage lost out to standard gage due to the Pacific Railroad Act of 1862. That act stipulated that the new Pacific railroad would be built to standard gage. The conversion of the Southern roads to standard gage was driven by economics, pure and simple.

awalker2002@comcast.net

To understand the economics that drove southern gauge conversion please read "The American Railroad Network, 1861-1890" by George R. Taylor and Irene B. Neu. Harvard University Press, 1956. Taylor did a good job of explaining the problems of moving to a standarg gauge. Also, I think the book has been reprinted recently, but I have no publication information.

david.wilkins@bardstown.com

(Reprinted from a reply I made to "The Other Side
of the Tracks" message board)

Some places got wild in their lack of
standardization.
Trenton, New Jersey had 4 different trolley
gauges at once, with 2 different cases of dual
gauge track.
Trenton & Mercer County Traction (Trenton
Transit) used an odd gauge of 5' 2". Public
Service Railways (Public Service Co-ordinated
Transport) used Standard Gauge of 4' 8-1/2"
for their North Jersey lines and an even 5' (the
Russian and Confederate gauge) for their South
Jersey lines. The 2 groups used dual gauge track
to share a Trenton terminal. Pennsylvania-New
Jersey Railways (Bucks County Traction and
Trenton-Princeton Traction Company) used
Standard Gauge of 4' 8-1/2" for their intrastate
line to Princeton and the "Pennsylvania Broad
Gauge" in its Philadelphia variation of 5' 2-1/4"
for their interstate lines to Pennsylvania. They
originally had a stretch of single dual gauge
track in the center of the 2-lane street to reach
the joint terminal. This was later replaced by 2
single tracks, one for each gauge, in the same
2-lane, 2-way street! While the 2 Standard Gauge
lines didn't connect directly, they both handled
steam railroad interchange freight traffic, and
connected to the national railroad system via 2
different railroads.
Cincinnati, Georgetown, & Portsmouth (Ohio)
trolley line had 3 gauges - standard, narrow 3',
and Cincinnati's broad trolley gauge 5' 2-?/?",
with some wild triple-gauge track.
Louisville (Kentucky) Railways had 5' gauge
city trolleys, but had some dual gauge track
with Indiana Railroad standard gauge
interurbans. The IRR cars used the Big 4
(Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis)
Railroad bridge and tracks to cross the Ohio
River, but LRy trolleys on the suburban "Daisy
Line" to Indiana shared 4 rail gantlet track with
steam trains on a different railroad bridge.
Columbus, Ohio (and possibly Salt Lake City, Utah)
had 3-rail dual gauge trolley tracks, standard and
broad gauges.
San Francisco, California had some dual gauge
track to allow standard gauge trolley work cars
to tow cable cars on flat cars to the narrow
gauge cable car barn. The last traces of this
track disappeared in the 1982 cable car system
reconstruction.
Los Angeles, California trolleys were 3' 6" gauge
(because that was the gauge of the cable cars they
replaced!) There was some dual-gauge track with
the standard gauge Pacific Electric interurbans.
Denver, Colorado had the same 2 different gauges
for similar reasons, but I don't know about
dual-gauge track.
Kutztown, Pennsylvania had some dual gauge
standard and Pennsylvania Broad gauge track,
because the Allentown & Reading interurban line
used the gauges of its terminal cities in the 2
ends of its line. Kutztown carbarn was the
meeting of the gauges. Reading trolleys were
broad gauge, Allentown's were standard.
Suburban Toronto, Ontario briefly had some 4-rail
track when a "Radial" trolley line that handled
interchange steam railroad freight cars was
converted to the Toronto city gauge of 4' 10-7/8"
before the freight service could be abandoned!

Dunkirk, New York passed a local law that no
railroad coming into town could have the same
gauge as any other line. The Erie was 6', the
New York Central was standard, and the Lake
Shore & Michigan Southern was 4' 10" gauge.



TyburnRR@cs.com

I don't believe this has gone on so long with no challenge to the thought that standard gauge is related to the Romans and their chariots. This urban legend just will not die, even though the source of such rutways can be traced back past Rome to Greece and Crete, and on to Babylon, around 3,500 b.c. or so. Go to http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.htm for a proper discussion. Or read The Evolution of Railways by Charles E. Lee, published in London by the Railway Gazette in 1943. Government is not to blame for the gauge of railways as much as the average size of the back of a horse and where Mr. Stephenson happened to work when he started his career. British tramways used a variety of gauges from 4' to 5' at the time, and he just happened to be on one using what we now call standard gauge.

rdgoldfede@aol.com

> Government is not to blame for the
> gauge of railways as much as the average
> size of the back of a horse.

Last time I was at the County Fair I noticed that the back end of a horse of course varied from narrow gauge to broad gauge with as many variations in between as we have seen mentioned as track gauges. The gauge of horse drawn vehicles also varies from the buckboard to beer wagon and the wheel tread and camber varies with the load. What made the ruts in the Roman road was not the light fleet chariot but the heavy freight wagon drawn by oxen .. that have definitely broad gauge rear ends and are usually used in pairs (or the pairs mu'd). There were so many of them that daylight traffic was banned in Rome. If you didn't make your vehicle to fit in the ruts you soon were out of business due to wheel breakage. In a mine or industrial useage 2ft to 3ft gauge worked just great with a mule and was handy where you didn't want to waste time digging large tunnels or wanted sharp curves ... and your loads were not that great. Once you were outside however you could increase the "gauge" and the "horsepower" to fit the space available. (all sounds familiar). I'd be willing to bet that railroad gauge standardization was purely political and streetcars varyied all over the place based on the avoidance of claims for wagon wheels busted up when they got stuck in the gauge!

lamontdc@adelphia.net

No Message

> I'd be
> willing to bet that railroad gauge
> standardization was purely political and
> streetcars varyied all over the place based
> on the avoidance of claims for wagon wheels
> busted up when they got stuck in the gauge!

The following is probably an urban legend: I've heard that after deciding to have a non-standard trolley gauge, Camden, N.J. picked 5' 0" and Baltimore, Md. picked 5' 4", in both cases to fit the local waggons! I've seen photos of Philadelphia waggons that fit 5' 2-1/4" track. Is there a standard wheel gauge for horse waggons?

TyburnRR@cs.com

> The following is probably an urban legend:
> I've heard that after deciding to have a
> non-standard trolley gauge, Camden, N.J.
> picked 5' 0" and Baltimore, Md. picked
> 5' 4", in both cases to fit the local
> waggons! I've seen photos of Philadelphia
> waggons that fit 5' 2-1/4" track. Is
> there a standard wheel gauge for horse
> waggons?

Just possibly could be ... however it is interesting to note that in the Electric Railway Journal of 1908 ...a major consideration when designing new trackwork in the city was the amount of "team" traffic on your proposed route. The gentleman recommends 70lb rail for light team traffic and up to 90lb for heavy team traffic. I originally got the story from a gentleman that was in the traction business in this era as he was explaining the fun of chasing these teamsters as they stuck to the nice smooth rail instead of the beatup roadways.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> The following is probably an urban legend:
> I've heard that after deciding to have a
> non-standard trolley gauge, Camden, N.J.
> picked 5' 0" and Baltimore, Md. picked
> 5' 4", in both cases to fit the local
> waggons! I've seen photos of Philadelphia
> waggons that fit 5' 2-1/4" track. Is
> there a standard wheel gauge for horse
> waggons?

At least for Baltimore, it's more than urban legend. As reported in Mike Ferrell's book, the first ordinance authorizing streetcars in 1859 provided that the gauge be "the same as that of ordinary street carriages". This led to the unique Baltimore gauge of 5'- 4 1/2". This gauge was enforced by City franchise agreements from then on. There certainly are photographs from the electric car era of wagons taking advantage of the smooth ride in the steel flangeway of the tram rail.

Fortunately the City did not put that restriction on the franchise granted to the MTA to use Howard Street for the new Central Light Rail Line!

Pete Schmidt


pjslks@ix.netcom.com