> When a real live working railroad donates a
> locomotive to a museum does it come with a
> license to keep it in the corporate paint
> job ????

Not always. The one common example we have is not corporate--as a rule, if a locomotive or other equipment is sold by or donated by/transferred from the military, there is usually a requirement that all military markings be removed and the item(s) painted in a form to avoid confusion with the military. Specific examples of this include a Baldwin switcher now owned by the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (painted in BLW shop switcher black) and Alco MRS-1's acquired by the Hagerstown Roundhouse Museum.

Of course, the above example isn't a trademark or copyright issue. CSX seems to have no problem with its former 9699/Chessie 3802 remaining in a good, solid CSX "Pumpkin" paint job at the B&O Museum for the time being, but then again CSX and the B&O Museum have what I'd call a "special" relationship. I've seen donated cabooses with the Conrail "can opener" painted out, apparently by the choice of the new owner/operator.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Guilford has asked the Connecticut museum that has the B&M 1455 not to paint the B&M logo on it.

Even though it left B&M ownership before Guilford came on the scene.

I think that Fallen Flags are history and museums should be able to use their paint schemes.

If UP or BNSF wants a royalty they can demand it but they sure will miss a lot of good publicity.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Coupla points...

If there is anyone to blame, blame the various corporate debacles such as Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco Industries and so on. Like it or not, these types of things have brought many changes in the way that corporattions are run today.

Second, paying more attention to how your brand is used or portrayed within the marketplace is nothing new. Harley-Davidson was perhaps the first outfit to pay some serious attention to this-and still does. The Big Three automakers also choose to "get serious" with the use of their logos and brands with respect to the marketing of automotive restoration parts
by third-parties.

Third, aren't we forgetting the fact the UP organization has been a generous and responsible corporate citizen with respect to the preservation community for MANY, MANY years !!! How many Big Boys did they give away-when a certain other road scrapped every single example of their signature 4-6-4 type ? In more recent times, how many turbines and diesel-electric locomotives have they placed in museums ?

Fourth, IP rights are IP rights...

I rest my case....

> I read most of the discussion --- and from
> what I can gather the UP also wants
> licensing revenue from any of the old roads
> logos that merged into their system. Is that
> correct? C'mon, let the old roads rest in
> peace!!


newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

IMHO, the preservation community has NOTHING to gain and EVERYTHING to LOSE by even getting involved in this debate.

Given the tenuous existence of most preservation groups to begin with, the last thing a group needs to do is to is defend lawsuits brought forth by certain opportunistic parties.

Guilfords' concerns are not as absurd as they may seem to be.

Perhaps the real villain is the civil justice system and the exploding practice of filling frivolous lawsuits !!!

> Guilford has asked the Connecticut museum
> that has the B&M 1455 not to paint the
> B&M logo on it.

> Even though it left B&M ownership before
> Guilford came on the scene.

> I think that Fallen Flags are history and
> museums should be able to use their paint
> schemes.

> If UP or BNSF wants a royalty they can
> demand it but they sure will miss a lot of
> good publicity.

> Ted Miles


newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

> Coupla points...

> If there is anyone to blame, blame the
> various corporate debacles such as Global
> Crossing, Enron, Tyco Industries and so on.
> Like it or not, these types of things have
> brought many changes in the way that
> corporattions are run today.

Just let me add (because it has and is being done as I type).. In the state of Ohio, for fifty dollars, I can reserve a name that does not conflict with active corporations or brand names and own the rights to that name for five years ...I can be a cutsey and demand to receive money or control that name with the law behind me ...it really hits home when it is a fallen flag and the lever is used against other preservation efforts.

If you think UP is fun ...whip up some Cleveland Browns T-shirts and peddle them at the stadium!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Guilfords' concerns are not as absurd as
> they may seem to be.

> Perhaps the real villain is the civil
> justice system and the exploding practice of
> filling frivolous lawsuits !!!

Exactly the case. Because when little Johnny, who shouldn't have been there to begin with, slips and falls off that museum-owned B&M-painted engine he was climbing on, his family's lawyer will not only sue the museum, but Guilford as well...

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

This is a significant issue, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up more often. A while back I was involved with restoration of a passenger car for excursion service. This included a meticulous restoration of its paint job, carrying the name of a still-functioning railroad. The owner asked permission to re-apply the name, and was turned down. This problem was solved by writing different officials of the company until a favorable answer was received, and filing that reply and deep-sixing the others. But let the train go in the ditch, or get hit by a car at a grade crossing, and if the car letterboard gets photographed by the newspapers the issue will resurface.

The UP statements quoted above seem to allow nonprofits quite liberal and reasonable use of the railroad's name on donated equpment for exhibit purposes. But anyone making for-profit use of these names should expect to pay, and that includes extinct names of predecessor lines.

(My favorite naming-rights story was in Trains Magazine a while back, and told how Pan Am airlines in its last days complained to CSX about reviving the "Pan American" name for an express freight service. The railroad is said to have reminded Pan Am that the L&N let Juan Trippe's airline use the Pan American name, reasoning that the airline to South America and the L&N's passenger train weren't competing with each other, and informing them that CSX still owned the name.)

Aarne Frobom

> There is a $2000 up front non-refundable
> fee. AN a 9% royalty on all Thomas
> merchandise.

Thanks, Mr Wylde.

That shows what I know! I guess this was missing when this was discussed.

Well, that is still less than the reported amount for the "Polar Express."

BN