> Yeah, but you missed a few. The actual score
> for Illinois Central locos is:

> 4-8-2--two
> 2-8-2--one
> 2-6-0--one (at IRM--a cute little Mogul!)
> 2-8-0--one
> 0-6-0--three
> 0-8-0--one
> 2-4-4RT--one, and I'd dearly love to have it
> for IRM!
Actually I know about those and there are 2 2-8-0's in existance. My thoughts on IRM, though is that they have more than enough already and those of us who would like to start some type of museum in our area won't be able to find the equipment to make a good display because the big museums have more than they can fix, but won't let any of it go to someone who can take care of it or bring it back to the area the equipment came from.

Being in Kentucky, I would love to have the little 2-6-0 that IRM has and return it to operating condition pulling IC passenger cars on former IC track, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, preserving the equipment is great, but you can't have everything and what you can't fix needs to go to someone who can fix it, look at steamtown, they're getting rid of some equipment.

gnufe@apex.net

> Actually I know about those and there are 2
> 2-8-0's in existance. My thoughts on IRM,
> though is that they have more than enough
> already and those of us who would like to
> start some type of museum in our area won't
> be able to find the equipment to make a good
> display because the big museums have more
> than they can fix, but won't let any of it
> go to someone who can take care of it or
> bring it back to the area the equipment came
> from.

> Being in Kentucky, I would love to have the
> little 2-6-0 that IRM has and return it to
> operating condition pulling IC passenger
> cars on former IC track, but I don't see
> that happening anytime soon. Don't get me
> wrong, preserving the equipment is great,
> but you can't have everything and what you
> can't fix needs to go to someone who can fix
> it, look at steamtown, they're getting rid
> of some equipment.

Let em see if I understand this correctly:

The big, established museums with land, track, buildings, shops, people, and money have "more than they should have" (as determined by what authority?) and should get rid of some stuff because someone else, usually with none of the above, wants it.

And a freshly-minted start-up with little or no money, land, track, buildings, shops and few people can do a better job than the established place, therefore, some of the big museums should have some of their stuff forcibly (presumably) removed from their collections and given to the newbies.

I don't get it!?!. I know a lot of start-ups and wanna-bees are constantly and almost insanely jealous of IRM, CSRM, Spencer, Steamtown, Orange Empire, St. Louis, and other large museums and their collections, but this line of reasoning makes no sense to me.

It also ignores the facts about how much of the stuff in IRM and other museums today got there precisely because starry-eyed start-ups and others demonstrably could not or would not (in the case of cities) take care of their one or two locomotives and/or cars, and as a result the locomotive or car was in real danger of being scrapped until an IRM saved the piece.

If you are in Kentucky, then you already know about the IC 2-8-2 and 2 cars in Paducah that have been raped, robbed, flooded and vandalized, not to mention being moved all over hell and back in the city every time someone complains about them. From time to time, someone slaps a coat of paint on them and at least makes some effort to make them presentable, but it's sporadic at best.

If this is any example of a better job than a place like IRM, then I remain firmly unconvinced.

> Let em see if I understand this correctly:

> The big, established museums with land,
> track, buildings, shops, people, and money
> have "more than they should have"
> (as determined by what authority?) and
> should get rid of some stuff because someone
> else, usually with none of the above, wants
> it.

> And a freshly-minted start-up with little or
> no money, land, track, buildings, shops and
> few people can do a better job than the
> established place, therefore, some of the
> big museums should have some of their stuff
> forcibly (presumably) removed from their
> collections and given to the newbies.

> I don't get it!?!. I know a lot of start-ups
> and wanna-bees are constantly and almost
> insanely jealous of IRM, CSRM, Spencer,
> Steamtown, Orange Empire, St. Louis, and
> other large museums and their collections,
> but this line of reasoning makes no sense to
> me.

> It also ignores the facts about how much of
> the stuff in IRM and other museums today got
> there precisely because starry-eyed
> start-ups and others demonstrably could not
> or would not (in the case of cities) take
> care of their one or two locomotives and/or
> cars, and as a result the locomotive or car
> was in real danger of being scrapped until
> an IRM saved the piece.

> If you are in Kentucky, then you already
> know about the IC 2-8-2 and 2 cars in
> Paducah that have been raped, robbed,
> flooded and vandalized, not to mention being
> moved all over hell and back in the city
> every time someone complains about them.
> From time to time, someone slaps a coat of
> paint on them and at least makes some effort
> to make them presentable, but it's sporadic
> at best.

> If this is any example of a better job than
> a place like IRM, then I remain firmly
> unconvinced.

IC 1518 is in the hands of the ciy government not preservationists or a museum. The 2-6-0 that is at IRM is sitting outside rusting. Steamtown has a shay from the Meadow River RR that is missing its cab and rusting. Other museums have equipment that is sitting rusting. I'm not jealous of IRM, I think it is great that they saved the equipment, but would they let it go if someone approached them with the funds to restore, say the 2-6-0 for example. Would they let it go?

Another thing that IRM could do or any museum for that matter, is help these start ups get off there feet and make something. Being insanely jealous is not the way to save things and not helping the little guy is not the way to save equipment either. That just goes back to petty greed. Weren't you taught to share when you were little?

gnufe@apex.net

> I'm not jealous of IRM,
> I think it is great that they saved the
> equipment, but would they let it go if
> someone approached them with the funds to
> restore, say the 2-6-0 for example. Would
> they let it go?

> Another thing that IRM could do or any
> museum for that matter, is help these start
> ups get off there feet and make something.
> Being insanely jealous is not the way to
> save things and not helping the little guy
> is not the way to save equipment either.
> That just goes back to petty greed. Weren't
> you taught to share when you were little?

Not to be a pest here, but has anyone thought of ASKING I.R.M. rather than PRESUMING? I mean, have we suddenly all become a bunch of whiners who attack fellow members of the rail preservation field without even asking them their opinion? Geez.

The thing that bugs me most about this thread is that it started out as a valid question by, yes, a possibly over-anxious younger railfan. However, soon it developed into a "lets jump on the young guy because he doesn't know any better" match. I mean, did ANYONE read the earlier threads about the problems younger guys (and girls) have in trying to break into this field? If you don't know every number, type of valve gear, tender-gallon capacity, and drawbar pull of every locomotive ever built on this planet from the minute you came out of womb, you might as well put a bullseye on your head and let everyone take aim. People think I'm joking, but at times thats the way it feels when you first get involved: I mean, god forbid if you make a mistake like Alex, and fight for a locomotive that there are a fair amount of. You'll have every rail fan in christendom on your back. It's not Alex's fault the Perlman had no sense of history in not saving an NYC Hudson. Heck, he wasn't even around yet!

Oh, and if you want to get into a REAL pissing match, I'm pretty sick and tired of hearing what a wonderful job the C&O did with preserving steam. Yeah they preserved steam: WHEN IT WAS THEIR'S IN THE FIRST PLACE. I see exactly two Pere Marquette locomotives left, both of them Berkshires. If you count the PH&NW's #1 "D.B. Harrington" (a narrow guage P.M. predecessor 2-4-0), its a whopping three. Oh, and how many Hocking Valley engines do you see??????? (And no, I do not count that LS&I copy as a Hocking Valley engine).

T.J.


Port Huron Museum
peremarquette@hotmail.com

>Hi T. J.

If I sound like I'm whining, I apologize. I being of the younger generation, find it difficult to do what I would like to do when it comes to rail preservation. I have an idea for a museum in this area, which stems from my dads efforts to start one. Yet everyone around here would rather do it themselves and be the ruler or have nothing. Being that it offends people to name names, I won't, but there is a local group that has some track and runs a little operation, but would rather us give them our equipment than come up with an agreement that benefits both parties. I find that insulting. And then there were the people that wanted to be the head of the group and couldn't so they badmouthed the group and stabbed us in the back, so that fell through. IC 1518 would be in better shape if it hadn't been for those people. Then you have the big museums that think they need every piece of rail equipment that is out there, so where does that leave me? It leaves me wanting to win the lottery so I can buy a railraod, save some stuff and run my own operation, because noone wants to help me do it the nonprofit way, but they want the equipment I have or try to take soemthing that was paid for for storage because they wanted the equipment. Now how's that for preservation?

I know being bitter about it doesn't solve the problem, but it's always the little guy that gets stepped on by the big guy. If I thought that IRM would part with the 2-6-0, I would ask, but since hell hasn't froze over I'm not going to bother, besides I don't have the money to mess with it anyway, me being the poor college student and all.

Look at my post on the Frisco car, has anyone come up with any info on it?

gnufe@apex.net

> IC 1518 is in the hands of the ciy
> government not preservationists or a museum.
> The 2-6-0 that is at IRM is sitting outside
> rusting. Steamtown has a shay from the
> Meadow River RR that is missing its cab and
> rusting. Other museums have equipment that
> is sitting rusting. I'm not jealous of IRM,
> I think it is great that they saved the
> equipment, but would they let it go if
> someone approached them with the funds to
> restore, say the 2-6-0 for example. Would
> they let it go?

Why don't you ask Kevin McCabe?

BTW, just because something at a museum is sitting outside rusting doesn't mean there are not plans afoot to get it inside. And, turning the question around, does it mean that if the engine was fiven to a new start-up group that it wouldn't STILL sit outside and rust while they got their act together, just in a differnt location and under different management?

> Another thing that IRM could do or any
> museum for that matter, is help these start
> ups get off there feet and make something.
> Being insanely jealous is not the way to
> save things and not helping the little guy
> is not the way to save equipment either.

Why should they? What is to be gained by dispersing the equipment, which is now safe even if some of it is rusting, to a bunch of underfinanced and underequipped groups? Is it just to make those groups feel better? If you are an IRM, what do you then tell your donors who earmarked contibutions to that engine?

> That just goes back to petty greed. Weren't
> you taught to share when you were little?

That is completely irrelevant. The point is not to see how many poverty-stricken tiny museums can be established mostly to stoke individual egos and fantasies. The point is to preserve and eventually restore equipment, and I, for one, feel that in a field as small, fragmented, inbred, underfunded, laughed at and so often considered irrelvant by "real" historians and preservationsists as this one, more gets done by those who have the resources and the know how to do it, such as IRM.

Rather than continuing to rag at IRM, why not go to the City of Paducah or McCracken County or whomever owns title to the 1518 and see if they won't work with you to use that orphan engine and cars as the basis for your new museum? It needs more help than anything IRM has, it's more meaningful to the location it's in than the 2-6-0 would be, and it would be a great test of your theory.

I think it's a little weird for people to point fingers at IRM or St. Louis and yell, "WAAAAHHHH, they aren't doing it right and they are being mean to me," while situations like the C&O 2-8-4 discussed in another thread and other severely neglected engines like it still exist. If you want to accomplish something useful, go after those first, THEN you can whine about IRM.

I concur.

I must say, some of the recent threads have been borderline cases on what I consider acceptable for this forum. Nothing really blatantly out of line, but not up to our usual standards.

I think this board has the best content and most professionally behaved participants for a railroad oriented board on the internet. Might I suggest a refresher visit to our rules and guidelines section.

Let's not spoil a good thing.


Railway Preservation News
hkading@mail.rypn.org

>Point taken.

Actaully, I was going to try to save a roundhouse, but the outlook is bleak. The Frisco car needs painting this summer, also.

If any of you guys would like to help me scrape paint, then let me know.

Oh, and I try to be open about a lot of things. and I feel that any group should try to help the underfunded groups succeed instead of waiting for them to fail so they can grab their equipment.

Catering to the young is another good idea.

gnufe@apex.net

> Actaully, I was going to try to save a
> roundhouse, but the outlook is bleak. The
> Frisco car needs painting this summer, also.

> If any of you guys would like to help me
> scrape paint, then let me know.

> Oh, and I try to be open about a lot of
> things. and I feel that any group should try
> to help the underfunded groups succeed
> instead of waiting for them to fail so they
> can grab their equipment.

> Catering to the young is another good idea.

I didn't intend to sound like I was belittling you, because I wasn't. IMO, you brought up some preservation points that are often implied but seldom expressed, and thus are usually tapdanced around rather than addressed and discussed.

I do wish you well in the Frisco and 1518 endeavors.

Stewart,
Your honest opinions remind me of experience I have had working both at a large railway museum and small museum group that operated on a more scenic right-of-way. The smaller group was always in the shadow of the larger, and some individuals had blatant dislike of the other in both groups. I later found out this was in fact due to competitive viewpoints in acquisitions. From early on, they never got along, and they were founded roughly within ten years of each other. Both groups had their own merits, and each developed niches that were unique and valuable in the field.
I was disappointed by both groups when, on occasion, the smaller would purposefully prevent the other from having a specific piece of equipment. They perhaps had needs or desires from the larger, but the communication between them was scant if at all. The petty positions will probably continue as long as the main perpetrators, with axes to grind, continue hold their grudges. What is worse, younger members such as you often pick up the same attitude of the older members, and a Hatfield-and-McCoys situation may continue forever.

Now, large museums may have caused some hurt feelings in acquisitions, but they did get them. And honestly, if they are not doing a wonderful job at preserving something and you can do better, by all means make a proposition. But don't forget that dollars were spent already on getting any rusting and rotting hulk, so besides any sentimental value, they have significant value in any condition. IRM did have a railway auction in the late 1970s or early 80s.
Also, I am aware that IRM has helped out small museums in the past. Particularly the Ft. Collins streetcar group learned much about the mechanics of a restoration, and got certain hard-to-find hardware items from IRM. And also, large groups contain an awesome amount of technical knowledge. So when graduates of the big museum campuses go off and work for small places, you will be often impressed by the successes they bring.
Big museums do share, but like others have said, don't expect it for free, and good communications will get you further.
I hope any museums and clans of members who have bad blood, and axes to grind over spilt milk will soon look to find ways to improve their relationships with neighboring museum groups. Perhaps some mistakes were made. Carrying on with a bull-headed attitude will not make one look any better to the community (the citizens we wish to share historical knowledge with).
Good luck to you in the field of railway restoration.

> I didn't intend to sound like I was
> belittling you, because I wasn't. IMO, you
> brought up some preservation points that are
> often implied but seldom expressed, and thus
> are usually tapdanced around rather than
> addressed and discussed.

> I do wish you well in the Frisco and 1518
> endeavors.
One more item to this discussion that has gotten a little out of hand is the fact that museums such as IRM have recently taken the first steps to take a critical look at their collection, and have stated (IRM) that divesture of some pieces of equipment are in the best interest of the museum and the equipment in question. It costs a lot of $$$ for track storage, even outside, and in the Rail & Wire they stated that although it can be a painful process, they will consider getting rid of parts of the collection. Just get involved, and don't expect it to be the jewels of the collection.

SACarlso@scj.com

> Stewart,
> Your honest opinions remind me of experience
> I have had working both at a large railway
> museum and small museum group that operated
> on a more scenic right-of-way. The smaller
> group was always in the shadow of the
> larger, and some individuals had blatant
> dislike of the other in both groups.

> The petty positions will probably
> continue as long as the main perpetrators,
> with axes to grind, continue hold their
> grudges. What is worse, younger members such
> as you often pick up the same attitude of
> the older members, and a Hatfield-and-McCoys
> situation may continue forever.

Olin, you Quisling! Since when do THEY have a more scenic route?!?

Seriously, though, what you say is right on the mark, of course. Many of these personality conflicts go way back; we can only hope things eventually cool off. Although a Hatfield, I've actually managed to cooperate occasionally with a couple of the McCoys. (I admire your ability to pussyfoot around and not name names - I'll try to do the same.)

However, some level of conflict is probably inevitable. When two or more groups want the same piece of equipment, there's bound to be hard feelings. One of our recent acquisitions probably gained me a life-long enemy. I just hope he doesn't find out where I live. IRM has always found it easier to cooperate with Orange Empire, for instance, because we both focus on different geographical areas and don't have anything to fight over. You're most likely to have a feud with your next-door neighbor, not the people in the next county. And don't these same conflicts occur in other areas, such as historic aircraft or ships?

In any case, I hope that as younger people such as yourself take over, things will improve and perhaps more rationalization of the collections can take place.

> And don't these same conflicts occur in other > areas, such as historic aircraft or ships?

I don't know about aircraft, but it certainly does in the case of ships. Cases in point include the battles that went on over the USS NEW JERSEY before it was finally sent to Camden, NJ, and the very, very ugly battle (a war, really)that is still going on over where and in whose hands the the USS FORRESTAL will end up.

The NEW JERSEY conflict went all the way to the U.S. Congress befoe it was resolved.

The FORRESTAL war is probably headed for the courts if it isn't already there and long ago turned into a bitter public name-calling and mud-slinging fest between 3 or 4 rival groups and their various backers. IIRC, two of the feuding groups were located in the same city, and it all very much resembles some of the snits that occur too often in the rail field.

A little competition is probably a good thing, but these conflicts went far beyond that stage.

>Aaron, GROW UP. . .Mr. Mitchell, CHILL OUT !

Aaron Berger will grow up, in about 8 years.
He's a grade-schooler just getting interested in our hobby.
...and anyone who mentions scrapping any steam locomotive in this day and age should have their head steam-cleaned.