Stockton Terminal & Eastern 4-4-0 1, long a resident of Travel Town, shown here at the Stockton enginehouse in 1937. Built in 1864 for the first Western Pacific (Niles Canyon), but heavily rebuilt by Central Pacific and Southern Pacific before sale to ST&E.

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/STE01.JPG
ryarger@rypn.org

Speaking of the various rebuildings, does anyone know if the records exist of what was rebuilt and when? It is a popular choice for restoration, along with the WP 26 and the SP 3025, neither of which are likely to be restored to operation.

The popular opinion with many is that the ST&E is to valuable as an artifact to be "restored" along with all the changes that would encompass. But if we could demonstrate that the bulk of the locomotive is not original, IE new boiler in 1930, new firebox, 1944, new stack, 1899, etc. than the case of rebuilding would be better.

But realistically, I'll bet we work on one of the geared locomotives or tank engines before we move on to anything else after the M.177.

> Stockton Terminal & Eastern 4-4-0 1,
> long a resident of Travel Town, shown here
> at the Stockton enginehouse in 1937. Built
> in 1864 for the first Western Pacific (Niles
> Canyon), but heavily rebuilt by Central
> Pacific and Southern Pacific before sale to
> ST&E.


greg@cscvrr.org

> Speaking of the various rebuildings, does
> anyone know if the records exist of what was
> rebuilt and when? It is a popular choice for
> restoration, along with the WP 26 and the SP
> 3025, neither of which are likely to be
> restored to operation.

> The popular opinion with many is that the
> ST&E is to valuable as an artifact to be
> "restored" along with all the
> changes that would encompass. But if we
> could demonstrate that the bulk of the
> locomotive is not original, IE new boiler in
> 1930, new firebox, 1944, new stack, 1899,
> etc. than the case of rebuilding would be
> better.

> But realistically, I'll bet we work on one
> of the geared locomotives or tank engines
> before we move on to anything else after the
> M.177.

Greg,
As I recall from LR&P, an team from the California State Railroad Museum prepared a report several years ago (10 to 15 years?) on the historical significance of the Traveltown collection. Perhaps, that document could provide a starting point for your choices.
Ken

Of the 7 Atlantics preserved only PRR 7002 has operated, and a short time at that. Hopefully the SP example at Travel Town has a chance of operation in the future.

Joshua

I've been volunteering at Travel Town since 1988 and the report you refer to was many years before that. :-) It discusses the significance of the collection and their place in history, etc., but doesn't really get into the maintenance or mechanical histories of the artifacts.

But I have to think a locomotive with approx a 100 years of service on it would have had a lot of parts replaced, likely including boilers, etc.

My assumption was that this was built as a wood burner, though converted to oil at some point. But the firebox doesn't appear to be appropriate for a wood burner. So there are many mysteries with this locomotive that we need to solve.

Greg

> Greg,
> As I recall from LR&P, an team from the
> California State Railroad Museum prepared a
> report several years ago (10 to 15 years?)
> on the historical significance of the
> Traveltown collection. Perhaps, that
> document could provide a starting point for
> your choices.
> Ken


greg@cscvrr.org

This is strictly my opinion here, but of all the steam locomotives we have to work with, I'm afraid the Atlantic is near the bottom of the likely candidates. Even when the railroad to the Zoo is completed, it will be much to large, fast and complicated to be a reasonable choice for service.

A locomotive like that has to live out on the mainline, and given the difficulties all the other large locomotives have in finding time and money to venture out, I can't see that happening anytime soon. It would suck up all the money we could raise and then some. Money that could probably restore and operate several of the other smaller locomotives. And given the focus of TT is on the general public and children of Southern California, our mission will be much better served by one of more small steam engines rather than the big impressive engine that would be only seen out once a year or so. A school child will be just as impressed to see and ride behind a Heisler or tank engine as they will be by a huge Atlantic.

But then again, never say never. If Bill Gates wants to play with trains, anything is possible.

Greg

> Of the 7 Atlantics preserved only PRR 7002
> has operated, and a short time at that.
> Hopefully the SP example at Travel Town has
> a chance of operation in the future.

> Joshua


greg@cscvrr.org

I don't have my reseach records handy, but yes, the loco was built as a wood burner.

The Western Pacific was experimenting with coal conversions in late 1869. It was likely converted to burn coal by mid 1870.

It would have been converted to burn oil around the turn of the century.

There are some shop records for early CP and WP locomotives at CSRM, but they are far from complete.

Like you I would suspect that there is little or nothing of the locomotive which left the Norris shop in 1865 remaining on the locomotive at TravelTown

This doesn't reduce the significance of the artifact that remains, and in fact may be offer an opurtunity to intepet change.

Randy Hees

> But I have to think a locomotive with approx
> a 100 years of service on it would have had
> a lot of parts replaced, likely including
> boilers, etc.

> My assumption was that this was built as a
> wood burner, though converted to oil at some
> point. But the firebox doesn't appear to be
> appropriate for a wood burner. So there are
> many mysteries with this locomotive that we
> need to solve.

> Greg


http://www.spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

Greg-

I really don't have an understanding of your intentions for operation, I guess I'd just like to a 4-4-2 operate. Wish you and your museum continued success, hope to visit when I finally make it out to CA sometime.

Joshua

Randy and all,

I saw Traveltown Park for the first time last Fall. The thing I found most jarring was the lack of lettering on almost every engine.

As far as reatoration goes, how about Stockton, terminal & Eastern pn the tender?

How about Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, Sante Fe, and all the others. Then comes class markings and other smaller markings around the engines.

A few dollars worth of sign painting would sure improve the looks of that collection!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Several years ago, a local "activist" discovered that there was (gasp) lead in the paint on many of the locomotives, and worse yet, children were _touching_ said painted locomotives. This resulted in several news articles, and a misunderstanding in some in the community and even some in the railfan community that Travel Town had closed. While many of the exhibits were temporairly closed from physical access, TT never closed.

Because of the attention from this, the City began an emergency lead abatment program. Generally this was a good thing as it was the first paint in years that many pieces had gotten. Unfortunately, while it was done by City painters, their accuracy in matching prescribed colors was often not what we would call historically accurate. They also didn't complete all the lettering.

The lettering is being done now by City Staff as time is available. All of this was done on equipment NOT currently being restored by the volunteers.

The major pieces being restored (ATSF M.177, UP passenger cars Little Nugget, Hunters Point, Rose Bowl and Diner 3669) were not lead abated, or repainted by the City. Now that we can move them under the new Pavilion, they will probably be painted soon, in historically accurate colors and properly lettered. And once he M.177 is done in the next year or so, we will probably start on a small steam locomotive.

We can always use more help, so if you're local and want to get dirty, drop by any Saturday. But one caveat. Don't walk in and offer to take charge of something new like a steam locomotive and expect us to let you go at it. Plan on earning your stripes and prove you are long term before you are given a major project.

Greg

> Randy and all,

> I saw Traveltown Park for the first time
> last Fall. The thing I found most jarring
> was the lack of lettering on almost every
> engine.

> As far as reatoration goes, how about
> Stockton, terminal & Eastern pn the
> tender?

> How about Southern Pacific, Western Pacific,
> Sante Fe, and all the others. Then comes
> class markings and other smaller markings
> around the engines.

> A few dollars worth of sign painting would
> sure improve the looks of that collection!

> Ted Miles


Travel Town Museum Foundation
greg@cscvrr.org

I read the report prepared by CSRM over fifteen years ago, so my memory may have failed me. I believe the report asserted that there was more original fabirc in the Travel Town engine than in C.P. #1 "Governor Stanford." I do not recall if the report went into the specifics of what was original. I would expect the city (Linda) has a copy of the report. It contained a great deal of historical information about the collection as well as recomendations for the future development of the museum.

rrrarch@yahoo.com