Realityboy wrote:
>
> let's look at just how much is currently available in grants to the rail preservation community, I never heard of, say Pentrex, donating $5-10K to ATSF 3751 or SP&S 700. Or any of the book publishers, either. You get the idea.

It may not be a big-ticket amount (in the hundreds, not the thousands), and not for steam, but Withers Publishing (Diesel Era magazine, NS and UP diesel roster books, Horseshoe Heritage, Rockville Bridge, PRR diesel series) has donated toward restoration of the ex-Amtrak, ex-PRR Harris Tower by Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

cupper@att.net

> Gentility isn't necessarily the
> goal. Exhibiting the engine is, and
> communicating its historical message and,
> not incidentally, selling bunches of museum
> admissions or tickets. If this requires
> doing 60 m.p.h., we're ready.

Hi Aarne,

I have to agree with all that you have posted, but referencing the first paragraph, why aren't you taking 1225 to Train Festival at the Ohio Central? Exhibiting 1225 there would seem to fulfill all of the above criteria.

1225 is reasnably well known in mid-Michigan, but connecting with railroad enthusiasts from throughout the Midwest would seem to be a good idea for the MSTRP. I understand that you are sending the little 0-4-0 down, but I doubt if it will have the same impact that 1225 would!

Regards,

Michael Allen



a231pacific@aol.com

> Last year's version of this trip
> was absolutely gorgeous, but the thin
> attendance made me wonder if the steam
> excursion finally disappeared whether anyone
> would miss it.

First off, let me thank all of you who have joined in on the "Mainline Steam" discussions. I'm personally gratified to see that some folks are beginning to realize that mainline steam is now at a crossroads, and it's now time to take a hard look at mainline steam's long range future.
Sometimes we get so wrapped up in "the next engine" or "the next trip" that we forget there may NOT be another "next" if we don't plan for it. I count myself fortunate that have heard F. Nelson Blount personally talk about keeping steam alive "for future generations to enjoy, his sons Ted and Steve as well as his good friend Fred Richardson agonize over how to keep Nelson's dream alive, and the good people of Scranton, Pennsylvania take that dream to the National Park level. Folks, 45 years after Blount's "Steamtown, U. S. A." dream first hit the local newspapers, that dream is STILL alive; a number of locomotives that Blount owned are still running at various locations---three of which can be considered mainline locomotives: CP #1293; CP #2317; CP #2816. Another 45 years down the road, will the dream of F. Nelson Blount still be alive--or for that matter, the dream of Jerry Joe Jacobson (the F. Nelson Blount of the 2000's) or any other's who want to see mainline steam continue. I think those dreams can, and will, survive IF those who believe are willing to work together for a common goal. There is a lot of expertise our there that been gained in the last 40+ years that could, and should, be put to good use.

However, the first thing we have do is answer the question above. Will anyone miss the mainline steam excursion if it disappears? If there's no real interest in mainline steam any more, we're probably wasting our time trying to save it as a concept. In that case, let the course of time take it's toll--enjoy what the true believers do for us as long as they are able to continue doing it, and don't forget to give them their due credit and THANK YOU's along the way.

Can we interest more people in mainline steam? I think we probably can if, collectively, we can find a way to do it. There are folks out there that have done, and do, well at it. The UP manages to bring people trackside in large numbers to see #3985 whenever it runs and CP seems to be doing pretty well with #2816 from many reports. Surely, people in their steam programs could help with some of their "secrets". For example, I seem to recall a number of that a trip through the Royal Gorge sold out almost overnight when a travel agency got involved in bookings. Get people talking about what has, and what hasn't worked--and who knows? Maybe some good plans can be developed.

Let's say, for the sake of arguement, it's decided that the concept of mainline steam for the long-term is a good idea. History tells us that MONEY is the single most important item needed for it's longevity. I can recall F. Nelson Blount telling me, as a 15-year-old lad, that he didn't know where the money was going to come from to complete the Steamtown project; just a couple of weeks ago, in a telephone conversation with R. W. Adams, Blount's early Steamtown Superintendant, the story was reiterated about how Nelson had spent a personal fortune putting Steamtown together and how he was nearly out of money at his death. If I had to pick ONE thing that I believe F. Nelson Blount should have done differently in his Steamtown project, it would have been TO ESTABLISH A NON-PROFIT FOUNDATION WITH AN EFFECTIVE FUNDRAISING TEAM early in the project. When Mr. Rowland suggests a MAINLINE STEAM FOUNDATION (or whatever the name turns out to ultimately be), let's give the idea some serious thought. THERE ARE A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE IN THE RAILROAD PRESERVATION INDUSTRY (AND I BET A FEW RAILFANS, TOO) WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY RAISED MONEY IN THE PAST. A well thought out and planned foundation based upon proven successes would have a much better chance today than would anything F. Nelson Blount could have come up with 40-odd years ago.

Could such a Foundation be put together? That's a big question? It's something that only those really interested in the longevity of mainline steam can answer. It's a question for people that I see posting here frequently to answer collectively--along with their counterparts at other mainline steam outposts across the country. Would you prefer to have your legacy after 45 years similar to that of F. Nelson Blount's for the same period of time, or are films and books the best we can hope for? Personally, I'd like to see EVERYONE who's kept mainline steam running for the past 40+ years, and those that are continuing to do so, honored somewhere that a mainline steam locomotive or two puffs regularly for future generations to enjoy. A Mainline Steam Hame of Fame, so to speak.


fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

Two things here:

As someone who has for many years run and tried to run excursions, I can say:

1. The insurance-and-access issue: On UP, CSX, and NS, no amount of insurance or money will get them to allow you to run public steam trips with your equipment on their lines. So, that rules out about 3/4 of the main-line track for any proposed steam-operating group. As for the others: BNSF and CN have told people they will need $50M in coverage to run public trips (CN evidently has told some groups $200M). The $50M will cost about $150K a year. That will burn up very quickly any money raised by this new non-profit steam-operating group.

2. re: calling people who ask tough quesitons nay-sayers: If you look at the spectacular amounts of money that have been wasted on excursion-related projects just in the Detroit area over past decade, I think you can conclude that there hasn't been enough nay-saying going on in the excursion industry of late.

Chris J.

chrisjacks@chrisjacksnospam.com

Chris,

Your points are well taken. However, here's another way to look at conversations about the subject. If UP, CSX and NS aren't options, then don't consider them. Leave them out of the equation and focus on what can be done. My point about nay-saying is that we can all repeat the mantra of what doesn't work, but do we hear as much about what does work? Obviously, there are options out there... 261 anyone? 142?

On point two, that's exactly the opposite of what I said. Probing questions are generally a positive. Knee-jerk "it can't be done" responses are the nay-saying tht I find so detrimental.

#142 is a good example. How may times did I hear from members of our community during the planning for her 2004 season "ah, I will believe it when I see it... it'll never happen... I am sure that isn't happening" ? Well, I can't even count them, they were so numerous.

How many times did I hear "that's great, I think I will help out, volunteer, send a donation or at least make sure I ride"?

I know the exact number: 0

Generally, the RYPN audience is positive, which is part of the appeal of this board.

Rob

> Two things here:

> As someone who has for many years run and
> tried to run excursions, I can say:

> 1. The insurance-and-access issue: On UP,
> CSX, and NS, no amount of insurance or money
> will get them to allow you to run public
> steam trips with your equipment on their
> lines. So, that rules out about 3/4 of the
> main-line track for any proposed
> steam-operating group. As for the others:
> BNSF and CN have told people they will need
> $50M in coverage to run public trips (CN
> evidently has told some groups $200M). The
> $50M will cost about $150K a year. That will
> burn up very quickly any money raised by
> this new non-profit steam-operating group.

> 2. re: calling people who ask tough
> quesitons nay-sayers: If you look at the
> spectacular amounts of money that have been
> wasted on excursion-related projects just in
> the Detroit area over past decade, I think
> you can conclude that there hasn't been
> enough nay-saying going on in the excursion
> industry of late.

> Chris J.

>Seems to me that all of us mainline steam lovers need to band together and do all we can to make Trainfestival 2004 the best it can be!
I can envision a Trainfestival not too many years down the pike (maybe 5/6 years from now)that has 4/5 mainline engines attending, several from as far away as the West Coast,each pulling passenger consists,with a Fortune 20 national sponsor,extensive national TV coverage and 4 day attendance of 150,000 people!!! BUT to get there we need to make this first one the best it can be!!
For us to be diverted into discussing this or that dysfunctional group is a disservice to the big picture! I do agree that someone from the 1225 group(there must be someone with authority???) should announce thier position and get done with it already!!
Let's stay focused on the big pictureand make this first one a home run! Working together we can do it!
If you can attend, please do so. If you can't, but can buy a ticket(s) and let them be given to worthy local youngsters who otherwise couldn't come,please do so. If you can give time&labor before/during/after the event(I've signed up for two weeks) please do so. Many hands make light work!

I hope to see you there!

Ross Rowland First off, let me thank all of you who have
> joined in on the "Mainline Steam"
> discussions. I'm personally gratified to see
> that some folks are beginning to realize
> that mainline steam is now at a crossroads,
> and it's now time to take a hard look at
> mainline steam's long range future.
> Sometimes we get so wrapped up in "the
> next engine" or "the next
> trip" that we forget there may NOT be
> another "next" if we don't plan
> for it. I count myself fortunate that have
> heard F. Nelson Blount personally talk about
> keeping steam alive "for future
> generations to enjoy, his sons Ted and Steve
> as well as his good friend Fred Richardson
> agonize over how to keep Nelson's dream
> alive, and the good people of Scranton,
> Pennsylvania take that dream to the National
> Park level. Folks, 45 years after Blount's
> "Steamtown, U. S. A." dream first
> hit the local newspapers, that dream is
> STILL alive; a number of locomotives that
> Blount owned are still running at various
> locations---three of which can be considered
> mainline locomotives: CP #1293; CP #2317; CP
> #2816. Another 45 years down the road, will
> the dream of F. Nelson Blount still be
> alive--or for that matter, the dream of
> Jerry Joe Jacobson (the F. Nelson Blount of
> the 2000's) or any other's who want to see
> mainline steam continue. I think those
> dreams can, and will, survive IF those who
> believe are willing to work together for a
> common goal. There is a lot of expertise our
> there that been gained in the last 40+ years
> that could, and should, be put to good use.

> However, the first thing we have do is
> answer the question above. Will anyone miss
> the mainline steam excursion if it
> disappears? If there's no real interest in
> mainline steam any more, we're probably
> wasting our time trying to save it as a
> concept. In that case, let the course of
> time take it's toll--enjoy what the true
> believers do for us as long as they are able
> to continue doing it, and don't forget to
> give them their due credit and THANK YOU's
> along the way.

> Can we interest more people in mainline
> steam? I think we probably can if,
> collectively, we can find a way to do it.
> There are folks out there that have done,
> and do, well at it. The UP manages to bring
> people trackside in large numbers to see
> #3985 whenever it runs and CP seems to be
> doing pretty well with #2816 from many
> reports. Surely, people in their steam
> programs could help with some of their
> "secrets". For example, I seem to
> recall a number of that a trip through the
> Royal Gorge sold out almost overnight when a
> travel agency got involved in bookings. Get
> people talking about what has, and what
> hasn't worked--and who knows? Maybe some
> good plans can be developed.

> Let's say, for the sake of arguement, it's
> decided that the concept of mainline steam
> for the long-term is a good idea. History
> tells us that MONEY is the single most
> important item needed for it's longevity. I
> can recall F. Nelson Blount telling me, as a
> 15-year-old lad, that he didn't know where
> the money was going to come from to complete
> the Steamtown project; just a couple of
> weeks ago, in a telephone conversation with
> R. W. Adams, Blount's early Steamtown
> Superintendant, the story was reiterated
> about how Nelson had spent a personal
> fortune putting Steamtown together and how
> he was nearly out of money at his death. If
> I had to pick ONE thing that I believe F.
> Nelson Blount should have done differently
> in his Steamtown project, it would have been
> TO ESTABLISH A NON-PROFIT FOUNDATION WITH AN
> EFFECTIVE FUNDRAISING TEAM early in the
> project. When Mr. Rowland suggests a
> MAINLINE STEAM FOUNDATION (or whatever the
> name turns out to ultimately be), let's give
> the idea some serious thought. THERE ARE A
> LOT OF INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE IN THE RAILROAD
> PRESERVATION INDUSTRY (AND I BET A FEW
> RAILFANS, TOO) WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY RAISED
> MONEY IN THE PAST. A well thought out and
> planned foundation based upon proven
> successes would have a much better chance
> today than would anything F. Nelson Blount
> could have come up with 40-odd years ago.

> Could such a Foundation be put together?
> That's a big question? It's something that
> only those really interested in the
> longevity of mainline steam can answer. It's
> a question for people that I see posting
> here frequently to answer
> collectively--along with their counterparts
> at other mainline steam outposts across the
> country. Would you prefer to have your
> legacy after 45 years similar to that of F.
> Nelson Blount's for the same period of time,
> or are films and books the best we can hope
> for? Personally, I'd like to see EVERYONE
> who's kept mainline steam running for the
> past 40+ years, and those that are
> continuing to do so, honored somewhere that
> a mainline steam locomotive or two puffs
> regularly for future generations to enjoy. A
> Mainline Steam Hame of Fame, so to speak.


rrowland@weidel.com

> So, now you want to buy and MAINTAIN a
> 50-100-200 mile railroad??

As with most things like this, they want someone else to buy and maintain the track and trains and fund the entire thing.

> Look, it's nice to dream and fantisize. I do
> it, too. But, c'mon, stop being ridiculous.
> Enjoy it now, it will be over someday,
> perhaps sooner that you want it to be.

Excellent post, even though you will be accused by some of being narrow-minded or without vision or as a naysayer, etc.

Here's what I don't understand:

Of the 7 big Class One railroads, 2 have their own steam programs, and 1 is steam-friendly under certain rigid requirements (i.e. meet their liability insurance demands and operate in a businesslike manner). That's 3 out of 7 big railroads. Yet, to read some of these posts, I get the impression that for some people it's not enough. I wonder if there ever would be enough for some of them.

Away from the big roads, you have the Ohio Centrals and the MSRP and many others that are busting their collective cabeese to run big steam when they can and when it makes sense to do so. Yet, the tone of many people seems to be that of a 3-year old: "So what! I want MORE!! I DEMAND more!"

Put yourself in the position of a railroad CEO reading some of these posts and imagine what kind of impression it leaves with him/her. Especially the roads that do run steam or allow others to do so on their property. For the most part, I see people pretty much dismissing the existing programs, and whining because these roads don't allow some other engine(s) or groups to operate.

The CEO's of roads that run steam or that are steam-friendly look at this kind of stuff and think, "What a bunch of ingrates! Here we are, spending money and time and effort on our history and heritage and all these guys can do is wail that we should be doing more. And not a word about what we already do." Imagine the CEO of a road that currently isn't considered steam friendly but is giving some thought to the idea. What kind of impression are we making on him/her??

And where is it written that anybody owes anyone else a steam experience?

As the man said, Enjoy them while you can. They won't be here forever. Especially if some people don't get a better grip on reality.

Thoughts on the subject:

We aren't England, but it may be worthwhile to consider the cultural / physical / financial differences which may prevent us from having the ability to pursue as intensive a mainline steam operating program as is going on over yonder. Are there practices there which can be successfully adapted to make it more likely here?

We do have a national widespread mainline rail system called Amtrak. Amtrak has its own liability coverage and trackage rights worked out, and isn't scared of passengers. Can we promote a national steam touring program as a part of a business plan with Amtrak?

Many states DOTs are acquiring portions of lines up for abandonment and contracting them to operators as freight shortlines. Shortline operators will generally carry anything that generates profit and are easier to deal with - the buck stops on somebody's desk not too far away. Are we wasting our time thinking mainlines instead of local shortlines?

Railroads themselves are getting further and firther divorced from the consciousness of the general public, and will find themselves more and more on the loosing end of every public debate regarding such things as crossing closures, liability awards, nuisance ordinances, etc. Trade groups such as ARR are doing a poor job of convincing people of the genuine value of railroads in todays economy. AAR could sponsor a national public relations train to help put the message across.

Shippers are gods. Big shippers are demigods. If a big shipper of such a commodity as power plant coal wants to pull a train powered (at least partially) by coal they can easily convince the railroad hauling their unit trains to do so. Should we be making proposals to shippers instead of railroads?

I don't see a long mainline track in any major urban center supporting itself on steam excursion revenues exclusively so a valid business plan which generates more than its costs is required. I also don't see a national consensus attracting widespread industry support in our own camp - everybody will want it in their own back yard using their own 4-8-4. Getting support from outside of ourselves in the absence of a unified front is unlikely.

The hardware stuff is easy - the marketing and political stuff is hard.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

> #142 is a good example. How may times did I
> hear from members of our community during
> the planning for her 2004 season "ah, I
> will believe it when I see it... it'll never
> happen... I am sure that isn't
> happening" ? Well, I can't even count
> them, they were so numerous.

Rob,

Be careful what you wish for. The reports (some on other websites, some in local papers, and some just around the area) are showing that things are not going well in Phillipsburg. Too many trips leaving with less than 50 passengers, one recent trip had 7 onboard. The LIRR cars are dirty with windows that don't open and are really hot. On board crews have been unfriendly and one or two really bad confrontations have happened. The BR&W people are not to blame.

If this fails then the entire future of Phillipsburg as a railroad destination is sealed.