Did I read that right that access to the rail equipment is not yet allowed because there is no railings around the equipment? Why would there be railings around the equipment? Its bad enough many museums won't let visitors in the cabs of locomotives, now visitors can't even touch them now. Pretty bad indeed.

rickrailrd@aol.com

> Did I read that right that access to the
> rail equipment is not yet allowed because
> there is no railings around the equipment?
> Why would there be railings around the
> equipment? Its bad enough many museums won't
> let visitors in the cabs of locomotives, now
> visitors can't even touch them now. Pretty
> bad indeed.

I can't speak for the Forney Museum, but I can definitely identify with museums that want to keep visitors' hands off their equipment. While it is always nice for visitors to be able to touch and feel the equipment, it is often not feasible to allow this to happen on a large scale. Though it is very desirable to have a number of open railway cars or locomotives that are safeguarded by railings or monitored by staff, it would be negligent to encourage the public to climb over unprotected railway equipment. Many of these machines were built in the days before litigation made safety precautions a must, and they were built to be used by people who made a living working with them. They were not meant to be scrambled over by those unfamiliar with their intricacies. In addition, many pieces of equipment preserved in museums have problems with rust, rot, and even toxic materials. While it might be fun to climb all over museum pieces, it can be dangerous and should not be sanctioned by those organizations.

Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

8-)

> You're absolutely right, Frank. The public hasn't got the sense to be allowed to touch, climb on or otherwise molest display equipment that is being cared for and preserved for the enjoyment of all. There are a lot of stupid vicious people out there that would allow their nasty, grubby little children to crawl all over a locomotive and then turn around and sue the owners the minute one of their lovely little urchins fell off and broke their little neck. The general public doesn't appreciate the work and effort that goes into the procurement and the care it takes. I'm waiting for one of the lovely little dears to fall off our display caboose we have here by the bike trail in Xenia , Ohio. With our luck, they won't even be wearing their bike helmet. Who will suffer? The caboose! When the parents decide it should be hauled off for scrap because,...after all... IT'S DANGEROUS!

Ladypardus@cs.com

Example: Tourist railroad has a short static display train on disconnected rack in parking lot for display. It is covered with a reasonable number of warning signs and steps and ladders covered to prevent climbers.

Loving parent lifts kid onto platform next to "keep off" sign for photo and kid falls.

Kid breaks arm, parents sue. Lawyers and parents collect nuisance settlement from insurance company.

Can we develop a legal system that actually makes stupid people responsible for their own ill concieved actions and the inevitable results of them? Perhaps we could fine lawyers for bringing any case judged to be nuisance or spurious. No chance of making juries smarter.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Kids love to climb on real trains. If you take
away the "climb on and ring the bell" aspect of
it, kids lose interest. If they lose interest at
such an early age, there won't be anyone around
to preserve the stuff later on. I'd have to say
the biggest reason I like trains, is because my
Dad took me places like Steamtown(in Vermont)and
Edaville. My brother and I liked to climb on the
displays, pretend to be the engineer, and asked
our Dad to take us back to those places over and
over. He must have spent lots of money bringing
us back so many times. Certain pieces of equipment
were off-limits, and that was fine, it made you
realize there must be something about that coach
(i.e. SR&RL 2ft. gauge Parlor Car "Rangeley")and
even as kids we respected that.

So let kids climb and ring the bell, it brings
in revenue, and creates future preservationists!


shootpix@hotmail.com

> Example: Tourist railroad has a short static
> display train on disconnected rack in
> parking lot for display. It is covered with
> a reasonable number of warning signs and
> steps and ladders covered to prevent
> climbers.

> Loving parent lifts kid onto platform next
> to "keep off" sign for photo and
> kid falls.

> Kid breaks arm, parents sue. Lawyers and
> parents collect nuisance settlement from
> insurance company.

> Can we develop a legal system that actually
> makes stupid people responsible for their
> own ill concieved actions and the inevitable
> results of them? Perhaps we could fine
> lawyers for bringing any case judged to be
> nuisance or spurious. No chance of making
> juries smarter.

> Dave

Maybe something can be done in a small way. Post signs around equipment such as "We can't permit climbing due to potential lawsuits from unreasonable people" or something of the sort to make people think it's not the equipment's fault, it's the opportunistic greedy people and their lawyers. I didn't see much enjoyment as a kid just looking at a locomotive from the ground, I wanted to see what made it tick. We are living in a society that is running in the opposite direction from common sense. Basically, if a person is hurt on museum grounds, the museum SHOULD have insurance to cover NORMAL costs associated with medical expenses. If a piece is displayed that is unsafe to the decent person, that's a different story. Then again, that's where good judgement comes in. It is sad that a number of before mentioned individuals have ruined it for the rest. I wish all museums well in this area.

Ray

> Did I read that right that access to the
> rail equipment is not yet allowed because
> there is no railings around the equipment?
> Why would there be railings around the
> equipment? Its bad enough many museums won't
> let visitors in the cabs of locomotives, now
> visitors can't even touch them now. Pretty
> bad indeed.

At IRM, we have our ATSF Warbonnet cab and engine room open, and every now and then we have a steam cab open (DT&I 16 or ATSF 2903 (I think I've lived in smaller apartments than that cab!)). And of course, we give rides in lots of stuff.

BUT...the idiots are out there, unfortunately. If there's a way to get hurt through stupidity, someone will find it. Of course, that just makes more work for shysters like me, but I'd rather defend rail carriers and airlines than fellow museum personnel! So we try to be aggressive on telling people that yes, the "stay off" sign DOES mean them, and no, it does not say "stay off except for putting Johnny on the steps for a photo" or "stay off if anyone else can see you." And we get a lot of grumbling about how we don't have enough stuff open, but that's the way it is.

A war story with a moral: We have a 4-step portable stairway for boarding high-level cars from the (low) station platform. In between trips one day, a kid about 8 or 9 climbed to the top and was "rocking" it back and forth, while his parents watched. I saw it and started running, but before I got there, he managed to tip it over and fall onto the rails, just missing the railhead with his head but getting a few small cuts and bruises. Mom and Dad, of course, started screaming about how their precious brat was hurt "because of this unsafe stairway," with no mention that they had stood there and let it happen. A few days later I had a call from an attorney who did the usual "let's settle this matter for $$$$ without the need for messy litigation" bit. He was quite surprised when I told him that (a) I saw the incident; (b) I LIKE messy litigation and enjoy nothing more than tearing apart witnesses who won't acknowledge his or her own fault; (c) The parents' lack of due care and outright neglect would be the highlight of our defense; and (d) A suggestion as to where he could place his settlement demand. That was the last of them...MORAL: You have insurance, so when you get an incident, put the insurer on notice, but don't just cave in and let the insurer worry about it. Be aggressive, and insist that your insurer hire an aggressive defense counsel.

The other problem is theft and vandalism. If we leave a steam cab open and unattended, chances are that there won't be a gauge left by the end of the day. We've had people steal the ashtrays out of the Zephyr armrests, cut pieces of fabric from seats, even try to remove light fixtures and plumbing! These are railfans, folks--not the general public--and they are the same guys who give us a bad name by walking into yards without permission, or climbing signal masts to get a "great shot" (while giving the crew a heart attack). So the next time you see one of these yahoos doing their thing, don't just stand there--turn them in and help police the community.


Kevinmccabe@avenew.com

There's a difference between allowing people to go up a set of stairs to a locomotive cab and letting them climb on the running boards, but there's there's risk either way. All the signage in the world won't keep a determined visitor off your equipment, and just because you call yourself a museum doesn't mean people will treat your displays with respect. I'm amazed any museums still allow unlimited access to equipment in our current environment.

bkroger@earthlink.net

A few years ago during my pre-locomotive firing days at Steamtown an interesting solution to this problem present itself to me in the most humorous way imaginable. For years at Steamtown we had tried various ways of keeping people off equipment. Signs and clear plexi-glass over ladders did produce some good results, though there always seemed the once-a-week idiot who just had to get up on the running boards, ring the bell by the actual clapper or place their child precariously in the pilot of one of the beasts we had displayed around.

On one particularly pleasant afternoon I noticed, with great alarm, a man climb up and OVER the plexi-glass cover on the rear tender ladder of RDG T1 2124. Now if you're familiar with Reading T1's you know how incredibly LARGE their tenders are. As I began to run towards the engine to head off a lawsuit that would surely follow, I noticed the man start to do an odd "dance" on the tender deck. I realized that the man had foolishly opened the toolbox on top of the tender only to realize in horror that he had uncovered a large bee's nest!!! I couldn't even see the bee's until I got up close. I'll say that I've never seen someone shimmy down a ladder as fast as this guy, who made Olympic runners seem sloth-like as he made the 50 yard dash to his car in about 2 seconds.

Perhaps it was all the trouble we went through to put plexi-glass on the ladders, the ample "Do Not Climb" signs or the three locomotive cabs and two cabooses we did have OPEN for the public, but Lord help me, I just could not stop LAUGHING.

I fully expected a lawsuit from this but nothing ever came of it. The next day the idea hit me. I made signs for several locomotives that said "Warning Angry Bee's Nest Atop Locomotive". They never did find favor with my superiors, who removed them about a month after I put them up. For those four weeks however, not one person climbed on those 4 off limits locomotives, not one...

Scranton Trains
bing@epix.net

That IS hilarious. I only hope you haven't trademarked this idea! For that matter, does anyone know how to go about raising bees in odd places?

We had a member who, after chasing people off the TOP of the UP turbine, of all things, decided to grease the handrails. I think he was told not to do that again.

On a slightly less humorous note, I had thought of making up signs that say:
"WARNING - Lead Based Paint - Do Not Touch!"
But I suppose I should talk to my lawyer first.

Greetings,

St. Louis seems to address this issue well. There's a N&W or Santa Fe unit (sorry my mind is burned out today) that has steps leading up to the cab. Even though it is annoying to hear that bell ringing so often, you know people are learning and enjoying themselves.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

> A few years ago during my pre-locomotive
> firing days at Steamtown an interesting
> solution to this problem present itself to
> me in the most humorous way imaginable. For
> years at Steamtown we had tried various ways
> of keeping people off equipment. Signs and
> clear plexi-glass over ladders did produce
> some good results, though there always
> seemed the once-a-week idiot who just had to
> get up on the running boards, ring the bell
> by the actual clapper or place their child
> precariously in the pilot of one of the
> beasts we had displayed around.

> On one particularly pleasant afternoon I
> noticed, with great alarm, a man climb up
> and OVER the plexi-glass cover on the rear
> tender ladder of RDG T1 2124. Now if you're
> familiar with Reading T1's you know how
> incredibly LARGE their tenders are. As I
> began to run towards the engine to head off
> a lawsuit that would surely follow, I
> noticed the man start to do an odd
> "dance" on the tender deck. I
> realized that the man had foolishly opened
> the toolbox on top of the tender only to
> realize in horror that he had uncovered a
> large bee's nest!!! I couldn't even see the
> bee's until I got up close. I'll say that
> I've never seen someone shimmy down a ladder
> as fast as this guy, who made Olympic
> runners seem sloth-like as he made the 50
> yard dash to his car in about 2 seconds.

> Perhaps it was all the trouble we went
> through to put plexi-glass on the ladders,
> the ample "Do Not Climb" signs or
> the three locomotive cabs and two cabooses
> we did have OPEN for the public, but Lord
> help me, I just could not stop LAUGHING.

> I fully expected a lawsuit from this but
> nothing ever came of it. The next day the
> idea hit me. I made signs for several
> locomotives that said "Warning Angry
> Bee's Nest Atop Locomotive". They never
> did find favor with my superiors, who
> removed them about a month after I put them
> up. For those four weeks however, not one
> person climbed on those 4 off limits
> locomotives, not one...

One of our members (Bob Harris) owns a number of pieces of old South Shore equipment and a few years ago purchased one of the old retired electric freight motors from the electric company in Toledo, Ohio. His plan is eventually to paint this locomotive to replicate one of the South Shores old 900 series steeple cabs. The motor was moved to a private (fenced) area in Michigan City but, as you might have guessed, it was eventually broken into and vandalized. Bob did report that, even though he wasn't there, he knows there was instant retribution. It seems that bees had built a nest inside one of the cabinets in the cab and when he investigated the results of the vandalism, the cabinet door was wide open. It gave him some pleasure to think of the mad dash there must have been to get out through that narrow cab door.


midlandblb@cs.com

Wow Angie! Your compassion and regard for the public is really striking. Perhaps you could electrify your caboose and you could really get those nasty little urchins. I thought that the idea of a display was for the public to enjoy. I surely don't have any tolerance for vandals and the like, but wow, you are bitter!
Steve

sacarlso@scj.com

> There's a difference between allowing people
> to go up a set of stairs to a locomotive cab
> and letting them climb on the running
> boards, but there's there's risk either way.
> All the signage in the world won't keep a
> determined visitor off your equipment, and
> just because you call yourself a museum
> doesn't mean people will treat your displays
> with respect. I'm amazed any museums still
> allow unlimited access to equipment in our
> current environment.
We are the Kiski Junction Railroad in Schenley, Pa and operate freight and tours with a 1943 Alco S-1 which we have completely redone body & cab. At the end of our tourist rides we offer people the option of taking thier children up to the cab to blow the whistle, we have had a very good responce and we gain two things,1.children learn real quick how limited the engineer's visibility is and 2.parents learn just how big a little 99 ton switcher is, we feel we are offering a memory of a lifetme and teaching a whole generation of children a subtle lesson to be carefull around railroad equipment and crossings.My personal opinion is too many tourists railroads and museums make rules because they don't want to clean up or fix thier equipment they just want peoples money. I personally have been to almost every tourist railroad in the state of Pa and can tell you attitude to the public is everything.The vast majority of people will respect what YOU take pride in.We have been to many car and boat shows where people were allowed to sit in the brand new demos,why not railroad cars? Our secret is we run by reservation, keep groups small enough to handle and treat everyone like a guest.Maybe we make less money but we make more freinds and our guests have more fun.We have and will continue to turn people away when we reach our cars capicity because our first priority is the safety and comfort of our passengers. It works for us. We make our money off our freight operations, our tourist end is a sideline.I realize that is not an option for many tourist railroads or museums but if railroading is to survive I agree children have to be treated with care. I am old enough to remember engineers in steam engines waving to me as a child, when was the last time a locomotive engineer or conductor waved to you at a crossing?

mary@kiskijunction.com