Just came through Washington Court House and Columbus last weekend. Stopped off to see #2776 in W.C.H. Still wearing too much white trim. Not sure what they're up to these days. Stopped by ORM to see the N&W Pacific #578. She's wearing a solid coat of black paint as is the first 5' or so of the front of the tender. Looks like she had a new coat of paint for this past winter. No lettering yet. I would have gotten a photo but the angle and the light were not good. The front end of the engine is behind the backside of their depot and not visible from outside. It looks as well like they're making some track and overhead wire improvements. Saw many new poles along side older existing ones. Sure is good see some forward progress at The Ohio Railway Museum. Any members out there that can elaborate on all of this?

Sincerely,
Rob Gardner


train@nls.net

Just got out to Washington Court House a couple weeks ago and shot some pretty fair pictures of 2776. As for what is to be done with her, you may want to check out this website:
http://nkprr.railfan.net/co2776.html
It looks like they are collecting donations for her restoration to running order. A friend of mine has contributed to this project and he hasn't been told anything to the contrary. It would be nice to see this grand old lady snorting down the track. Lets hope this is a project that is going to be handled responsibly and not just another case of wishful thinking.

Ladypardus@cs.com

> http://nkprr.railfan.net/co2776.html
> It looks like they are collecting donations
> for her restoration to running order.

Oh god no I hope not! Not another hangar queen! Anothe group foolishly throwing away their money when they should be concentrating on either 1) building a shed for it to be housed in, or 2) moving it to a new site along C&O tracks and then building a structure to house it in.

rickrailrd@aol.com

Here's an idea or two about avoiding hangar queen syndrome, without losing the engine or the dream.

Reality dictates many needs - one, conservation of the artifact requires covered storage as a minimum. A covered work area is a real benefit to getting the job done too, so housing is a great primary priority.

Once under roof, everything exept the tube installation can be done without starting the FRA clock.

Some sort of national replacement program for operating mainine excursion engines should be considered which would provide for one coming online every time one runs out of flue time or needs a major overhaul. Cooperation and coordination required here, sort of a radical approach.

The time and money required to do the tube job and testing to an engine with rebuilt running gear that has been kept in good condition is minimal compared to the cost of the whole job. No funds would have been wasted on a tube job that would expire in 15 years whether or not even one days service had accrued.

If a group with such a semirestored engine was made aware that their, say, 5 year operating window would start in 6 months, the job could be finished and debugged quickly using funds held in reserve for such work.

Everybody gets their chance to get out and run on the few possible excursions without wasting valuable capital invested in flues that expire with few in service days on a planned basis. More park hulks are made closer to useful and kept in better shape for a reason, not just a dream. Dreams become reality according to plan not by accident or good fortune. And, the steam preservation community works together to help each other make the best use of our resources on a fair basis.

The real winners are the public that gets to experience a wider cross section of operating steam in a generation.

Am I totally off base here?

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Dave, that is about the most thoughtful, rational and practical solution to the hangar queen dilemma that I have ever read! I just love that idea and it solves so many problems. However, do you think that in the current ego driven and testosterone fueled climate of steam operators that such a plan could be implemented?

I could envision a few tried and tested "steam operating groups" exchanging locomotives from time to time that are owned by various "steam restoring groups" on a lease basis. This would allow each entity to do what they are good at, and for each restoration group to see their baby out operating.

You are right that the first priority of each of these restoration attempts should be to place the locomotive under cover, before the first bolt is removed from the engine. Then if the attempt is unsuccessful at least the locomotive will be protected, and hopefully not end up like 2700 in Dennison.

rickrailrd@aol.com

> Some sort of national replacement program
> for operating mainine excursion engines
> should be considered which would provide for
> one coming online every time one runs out of
> flue time or needs a major overhaul.
> Cooperation and coordination required here,
> sort of a radical approach.

That trip to England last year did you some good, Dave ;-)

For years the Steam Locomotive Operators Association in the UK did something akin to what you are proposing. It also worked with British Rail to develop an annual schedule and ensure a minimum level of safety.

A higher level of coordination between restoration groups is a worthy goal indeed. But it presupposes a few things:

cooperation between groups

a "big picture" perspective

fundraising skills, and probably pooled fundraising, to ensure money is available when it's "your turn"

The rest of this sermon will be a repeat, so I'll spare everyone ;-)

JAC

OK, John, can we get BR to merge with NS and CSX as prevailent partner?

But seriously, it is frustrating and devisive to have several operating large modern mainline excursion locomotives all dressed up with no place to go. The competition for any and all potential operations keeps it divided. There does seem to be some semiregional approach also which prevents us in the SE from seeing 4449 in Atlanta for example which would certainly interest many people down here. Why not a national program?

Dave



lathro19@idt.net

I, too have been to Britain and seen how the various steam groups cooperate. But to my mind, an even more critical need is for a train of safe, comfortable passenger cars to be assembled. Since most groups would only operate for a few days per year, a jointly owned rake of coaches (that's for the Brits) could be moved around to accomodate the need. With such a a plan, already-stretched budgets and manpower would not have to be depleted maintaining equipment only used for a few days annually. Too, during the off season, such rolling stock might be leased to a commuter authority or even Amtrak. I envision perhaps 15 cars including a concession car, a couple of open-window cars, maybe a combine or baggage car, all trainlined and properly lighted, heated and cooled, PA-equipped, etc. They could even be used for diesel excursions! Painted in a neutral scheme (Pullman green, tuscan, whatever), sponsoring groups could use magnetic signs to affix their own names to the letterboards if desired. Who wants to take this on?

K4s1361@hotmail.com

Good thinking here folks! Here is another angle to consider. How about doing something of the sort with smaller engines.When we had Railfair 1999 out here a couple of years ago the crowds at the small even tiny engines were as happy as the people who were standing around the 4449.
In Colorado the "EUREKA" has traveled and been seen by many people. In Maine the Monson 3 has been to places that did not even have track, they had to lay some two foot gauge for her to visit her home town.

Small is beautiful and you don't have to worry that CSX doesn't want to know steam exists.

ted_miles@NPS.gov

> I, too have been to Britain and seen how the
> various steam groups cooperate. But to my
> mind, an even more critical need is for a
> train of safe, comfortable passenger cars to
> be assembled. Since most groups would only
> operate for a few days per year, a jointly
> owned rake of coaches (that's for the Brits)
> could be moved around to accomodate the
> need. With such a a plan, already-stretched
> budgets and manpower would not have to be
> depleted maintaining equipment only used for
> a few days annually. Too, during the off
> season, such rolling stock might be leased
> to a commuter authority or even Amtrak. I
> envision perhaps 15 cars including a
> concession car, a couple of open-window
> cars, maybe a combine or baggage car, all
> trainlined and properly lighted, heated and
> cooled, PA-equipped, etc. They could even be
> used for diesel excursions! Painted in a
> neutral scheme (Pullman green, tuscan,
> whatever), sponsoring groups could use
> magnetic signs to affix their own names to
> the letterboards if desired. Who wants to
> take this on?

That sounds like a good idea BUT,your back to where you started just with coaches instead of engines one group owning the cars. I think it would be best if you had a group to over see the whole thing. Every thing from who provides the cars to who provides the engine to whos equipment is used for things such as refuels and auxillary tenders. Just some one to look ahead and see who has what. That way you can rotate equipment and not wear any ones out or run any thing in to the ground. And maybe even create a standard for equipment to restored to so that every thing from one group matches that of another. (I know they have standards already but I am meaning more of the auxiliary things like PA systems and lighting systems and electrical stuff) maybe I am way off base but that's my thought

Ben



http://filebox.vt.edu/users/btrue/
btrue@vt.edu

Ditto on having a "national" set of passenger excurison equipment, but hasn't AMTRAK begun doing that with the old Pioneer equipment? I know that the Greenville Chapter of NRHS leased that equipment (including diesel) from AMTRAK for their Greenwood, SC to Savanah, GA trips a couple years ago, and it seemed to work fairly well.

Another idea might be a regional set of equipment. The idea here would be to divide the country into four or five regions, and have a 15-25 car pool for each. Maybe Bluewater Michigan Chapter NRHS, Ohio Central, or Cuyahoga Valley could pool their fleets for the Midwest Region, etc. The problem would be where to set up maintenance facilities, how to pay what would need to be (in my opinion) a full time staff, etc. Consolidating efforts seems a worthwhile cause to pursue though.

> I, too have been to Britain and seen how the
> various steam groups cooperate. But to my
> mind, an even more critical need is for a
> train of safe, comfortable passenger cars to
> be assembled. Since most groups would only
> operate for a few days per year, a jointly
> owned rake of coaches (that's for the Brits)
> could be moved around to accomodate the
> need. With such a a plan, already-stretched
> budgets and manpower would not have to be
> depleted maintaining equipment only used for
> a few days annually. Too, during the off
> season, such rolling stock might be leased
> to a commuter authority or even Amtrak. I
> envision perhaps 15 cars including a
> concession car, a couple of open-window
> cars, maybe a combine or baggage car, all
> trainlined and properly lighted, heated and
> cooled, PA-equipped, etc. They could even be
> used for diesel excursions! Painted in a
> neutral scheme (Pullman green, tuscan,
> whatever), sponsoring groups could use
> magnetic signs to affix their own names to
> the letterboards if desired. Who wants to
> take this on?


Port Huron Museum
peremarquette@hotmail.com

> Ditto on having a "national" set
> of passenger excursion equipment...
> Another idea might be a regional set of
> equipment. The idea here would be to divide
> the country into four or five regions, and
> have a 15-25 car pool for each.
> Consolidating efforts seems a worthwhile
> cause to pursue though.

All this discussion about the proper steps to restore a steamer, and when it's finally done where will it run . . . sets of coaches to be shared by the various operators . . .etc.

Are we not forgetting the BIGGEST hurdle to overcome ? That which is the main (real) reason why so many good things (read: RR's steam programs) come to an end.

Our law-suit happy society where someone can win a million dollars for dumping their hot coffee in their lap. (Why does the U.P. require each excursion rider to sign a waiver . . . because they're smart).

Most real railroaders welcome a steam (or diesel) excursion, even if it means a little extra work, because they have pride in their job and in the industry- past and present. It's when the lawyers get involved, and scare the companies away from taking any public risk (can you blame them?) that we lose all the ground work laid by the Bistlines and Claytors of the world.

(Yes, I know they too, were lawyers, but they were also proud railroaders, willing and able to share their pride with us all.)

The situation will not get better, as long as we (the public) need to keep protecting ourselves from ourselves.

Gee, what a gloomy page.

Perhaps one way out of this is to try to work with transit agencies, such as the successful program Ross Rowland had with the 614 on NJ Transit not long ago. They're in the business of hauling people, and are already insured !

On the subject of a nation-wide rotating steam operation: sounds like a great idea for Steamtown ( U.S. Gov't ).
Host a different "big" engine each year, for special events, etc. . . a bit of "pay-back" for the grant funding?
-And let the class-ones move 'em there and back for free, since they don't want to host them on their own property for trips !

Couldn't a national program of steam excursions supply its own insurance? Any host road would then be covered for liability. Maybe Mike Deeble can comment?

Taking Steamtown national using a diverse fleet is a great idea from a conceptual basis. NPS has built in infrastructure all over the country to run local interference. Probably NPS has their own idea about how desireable they would find this.

We're mostly operators here and it seems we can solve operating problems and build operating progams but the marketing is another story.

I keep coming back to the "friendly ambassador" idea wherein railroads find it useful to make a positive appeal to the general public. Nice article in TRAINS with Linn Moedinger speaking of the good Thomas is doing along those lines, but shouldn't we speak to adults too? Not all adults have Thomas age children.

This came to my attention again when I was making my IRA contribution yesterday and the representative we deal with at Schwab told me he had no idea how much freight was carried by railroads compared to other modes until he acidently found out doing some stock research. People truly have no idea about the extennt to which rail haulage affects their lives - probably about half the electricity I am using to send this message was delivered in a freight train as coal. They don't know that virtually all long haul trucking could be eliminated by rail freight.

So here's a proposal: major mainline US railroads sponsor operating opportunities for currently certified steam excursion providers. The providers group together and operate as one plan. Impulse buy and time commiment trips are sold to the general public, and educational programs designed to provide the public with positive information about the railroading industry are performed at hosted events in urban centers between excursions. The ticket sales subsidize the costs. The word gets out.

Smart marketing guys like John Craft can take it from here.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Hi,

It sounds like a really great idea, but it will take quit abit of cooperation and the hardest part will be to sell the idea to the railroads. I agree that the railroads need a new marketing strategy and need to be more public friendly. Someone should write a business proposal and send it to the boards of all the major railroads. It will also take groups putting aside their petty rivalries and differences to work together. Does anyone want to take the first step?

Stuart

gnufe@apex.net

> You and I might like this, but last I heard and saw, I bet the NPS will not.

Steamtown is saddled with a bad utilities deal, made worse by the energy price spikes and needs people to come to the park.

They aren't in a position to be spending money to travel far from home when they are cutting staff through attrition and extending seasonal furloughs.

There's big money needed for the 26 and the 3254 and unless CASH comes up front, expect Moscow, Pa to be as far as they go.

Sorry to pee in every one's Cheerios but that's reality. Congress of course has no motivation to increase funding. Joe McDade has retired and the Senate is to busy illegally curtailing the Bill of Rights...