I have just posted two new photos of the City of Lima in its NKP blue and lettered in the Classifieds section.

I'm very interested to read that you'll be using the trompe l'oeil shadow-lining technique to recall the original stainless sheathing. I've always wanted to try that, and I hope you'll post a description of how your painter does it. The illusion can be startlingly effective. I can think of another "City" sleeper that might benefit from application of smooth sides and this paint scheme.

Do I remember correctly that the City of Lima is the old Michigan Railroad Club car "Cynthia?" I've got a photo of this car departing Port Huron on the last pre-turboliner Amtrak train through Michigan for Chicago, along with a NP sleeper-observation restored to perfect North Coast Limited paint by the old GTW carshop. The cars were owned by an individual in suburban Chicago at that time. I think the NP restoration was undone by a subsequent owner, but I'd lost track of the sleeper.

Yes, indeed, the "City of Lima" was the "Cynthia" during its Illinois Central/Michigan Railroad Club tenure:

http://www.eldcps.org/equipment/211.html

We'd love to see the photo of the car in that period of its existence!

Best Regards,
John Isaksen
ELDCPS

Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee painted some of its interurbans in "silverliner" colors to imitate fluted siding. These cars were used as substitutes when the Electroliner trainset was not available. I recall that Illinois Railway Museum and Seashore Trolley Museum have been able to repaint one or more of their respective North Shore cars in this manner. I do not have contacts at either museum. I know that Bob Kutella and others at IRM check this board regularly. Perhaps they can continue the conversation.

Wesley

Here is a photo of the car as the Cynthia during its days with the Michigan Railroad Club. This car also wore a Missouri Pacific scheme when it was part of the University of Arkansas "Hogtrain". This car has been a lot of places before coming back to its origin as a Nickel Plate car.

I'm the guy who did the shadow lining on CNS&M 251 about twenty five years ago.



Someone from the EL diner group contacted me a couple of weeks ago, and I took the time to recall and write up the procedure I used, but I never heard back from them. I guess they received it. I supposed they're miffed that I pointed out that the only way to do a historically correct restoration was to re-install the stainless sheathing, and I was hoping that was the goal for the future.

However, shadow lining in itself is worthy of preservation on the prototypes that had it, and I'd be happy to send a copy of my narrative to anyone who has need of it. It wasn't all that hard, in fact, it was kind of fun.

This link will take you to more views of the car; some taken just after it was finished in 1979 and another taken in 2005. Certainly testimony to the value of indoor storage.

http://www.irm.org/gallery/CNSM251

Why not do it as an article for RyPN?

dave

We would definately be interested in an article on shadow-line painting techniques. The longer, more detailed, with more photos the better.

Submissions of articles/breifs on other technical topics are also welcome.

Please feel free to contact us with any questions.

Tom Cornillie

Dave, Tim,

I’m leaving on vacation in about an hour, but very simply, I don’t have any photos. Never took any of the masking; don’t know if anyone ever took any of me painting. Likewise, I’ve lost track of all the products I’d used, which are likely all obsolete today. Does PPG still make Ditzler DQE enamels?

In addition, there are some technical issues with newer materials. The Gentleman from the EL Diner group just sent me a message, and there are some issues with trying to do this with the graffiti resistant coatings they are using.

In all, if someone can come up with a history of shadow lining for background and some photos of the process, I’d be happy to contribute. Perhaps the EL Diner guys can add an update – “Shadow Lining in the 21st. Century”?

Thanks for the plug, Wes, - I have had two surgeries since late April and only now am able to get around enough to check on messages here. Needless to say I am way behind, but gradually may get back on a regular schedule. I would have referred you to Dennis Storzek, but see he already chimed in.

Seems to me the Santa Fe did this same technique on a baggage car or two to match fluted cars on one of their lesser passenger trains - through Oklahoma??? Anyway, the practice was not limited to cash poor interurbans, and if done well, most folks will not perceive it as only two dimensional. Often they actually go up to the car and touch it, marvelling that it is not fluted.

Bob Kutella

The Santa Fe did this for a number of heavyweight cars; and also some of its smooth side 6-6-4 Pullman sleepers. For a while the heavyweight RPOs assigned to “The Chief” were painted this way. There was an article in the 2nd Quarter 2004 issue of the Santa Fe Historical Society's "The Warbonnet" about shadow lined and two-tone gray painted passenger cars. The Society reports that copies of this issue are sold out [see http://www.atsfrr.com/store/war-Vol10.htm].

Also pictures have been published that show PRR 10-5 Pullman's painted for through service onto the Texas Special. The paint job included shadow stripping.

I have psoted a new picture with the silver paint applied to the car. It is under the NKP City of Lima thread in the Classifieds section.

While studying the photo of the re-painted City of Lima, I've noticed something very curious. The B end truck (and I'm assuming the A end truck as well) is clearly not original to the car. It is a truck from an ex-Pennsy car. Note one of the bolster springs is a leaf spring. Also, the bolster anchor arrangement is peculiar to PRR 6 x 11 ISH trucks. I am not aware of any of the ex-NKP or C&O cars from the PS 1950 order that had trucks retrofitted while in RR service. Thus, this was most likely done while this car was in private hands. Any idea why the orginal trucks would have been changed out?

I asked our VP - Operations and this was his reply:

I have taken a closer look at the trucks under City of Lima. A very sharp observer has noticed that they are in fact type 41-NP-11. I have from the Pullman Company a Descriptive List of Cars from March 1961 - City of Lima, at that time under NKP ownership, shows to be equipped with 41-N-11 trucks. Both styles are of course, are based on the basic Pullman-Standard 41-N truck. However, the original 41-N-11 trucks were equipped with vertical shock absorbers, while the 41-NP-11 does not have this feature, but does have the internal coils springs with the small leaf. Closely examining photos of the car in IC service, shows the car equipped with the original 41-N-11s. So we can assume they were changed out either during or sometime after IC ownership. As we received the car in original C&NW paint, we can assume that the car was operated with the 41-NP-11s on C&NW, then UP. Why this would have been done may be for the reason that the original trucks were high mileage, and perhaps whoever did not want to repair them, and had a spare pair of 41-NP-11's that would work. If you have any photos of the Cynthia from the Michigan Railroad Club, or in MoP colors, take a look at the trucks, and see if they are 41-NP-11s or the original ones, 41-N-11s.

Mechanically, I think all we need to be concerned with is that the car is equipped with serviceable trucks, and they are based on the P-S 41-N truck. I never really noticed the difference, as when I was looking at them, I was more interested in their mechanical condition.

With a little research, perhaps we can determine who did it, or when they were changed out!

The trucks on EL "Phoebe Snow" coach 1318 are not the original ones either, and thankfully they are not. The P-S EL coaches nos. 1316-1325 were constructed with Budd Disk brakes. At some time, and I believe during M-N ownership, they were swapped with the same style of truck, but with clasp brakes, and these are a lot easier to maintain!

The PRR trucks (2E-P15) came from the Budd built 10-6 sleeper "Stergeon Rapids" that somehow made it to the C&NW when they were building up the office car fleet. The "Stergeon Rapids" was fire damaged and scrapped. It's sister car "Scioto Rapids" is now at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania via the Juniata Terminal Company.

E.B. Levin