I am sorry but I would be disgusted if 614 was renumbered 911.

Anxious to hear more details,

Joshua

Clearly, I have missed a lot of info that appears to have gotten deleted already. The idea is interesting, and if it were coming from ANY other person, I’d dismiss it as pure nonsense.
But from Ross? Well, no pun intended but he has a good track record of pulling such things off. However, “restoring” a steam engine to pull it? Yeah, aren’t there lots of locomotives out there right now capable of running mainline speeds and loads but are cold for various reasons? 1522 or 611 for example?
As a Army veteran and reserve Captain (and a collector of military equipment and uniforms), I’d love to see this train take the iron! But as for a train being “covered in ads,” well, the American Freedom Train wasn’t covered in ads, was it? I don’t think any of Ross’s projects in the past were EVER rolling billboards!

No, but there WAS heavy corporate sponsorship (I remember GM as one example) and if you looked in the right places you could see it, albeit veiled (such as program book mentions, possible subtle product placement....... someone give me the AFT program and refresh my memory........).

Aside from this, though, I have no comments whatsoever. I have reasons to be optimistic (AFT, Golden Spike Limited, Chessie Steam Special) and pessimistic (American Coal Enterprises, 21st Century Limited, the current state of 614). I'm convinced that some genetic defect compels people to complain no matter what. I could wave a wand and produce everlasting world peace, and then they'd complain about the unemployed military-industrial complex.

The main reason it took me nearly three years and 54 unsuccessful presentations 'till I was able to get the first sponsorship committment for the American Freedom Train was that I was asking for a $1 million dollar cash contribution(to the AFT Foundation a 501c3) and in return the sponsor was to recieve, a. category exclusivity, b.prominent mention in all press releases,advertising copy etc.,c. a modest number of general admission tickets in each of the 138 display cities and d. their name (in alphabetical order) on a brass plaque in the exit car. They also had to agree to assist the Foundation in keeping the project a. apolitical(NO political speeches from or near the train) and b. non-commercial(no can of Pepsi in the hands of the Pilgrims etc., and NO Corporate logos anywhere on the train or the display site equipment). It was a damn tough sell, but finally on the 55th. try Pepsi saw the enormous "Halo" potential of the project and signed on on Dec. 23rd.1973. By March1,1974(thanks in no small part to the efforts of Pepsico CEO Don Kendall) we had secured GM(who earlier had turned me down),Prudential Insurance Co. of America,Kraft Foods and our silent sponsor the Atlantic Richfield Oil CO.(they gave the $1 million dollars and asked to remain anonymous as oil companies were then in bad stead with the public(sound familiar?) and they didn't want that to hurt the project!!). That $5 million dollars gave us the organizational credibility to be able to go to 285 public museums(i.e. the National Archives, Library of Congress, Smithsonian and 282 other lenders and borrow 512 ORIGINAL documents/memorabilia-which made the AFT a "must see" when it was in your town. Those 512 items(many of which were listed as "priceless" on the $100 million dollar insurance manifest) are what produced the sell-out crowds across the nation, and that ticket revenue(approx.$14 million) payed the trains way thru the nation.
I'm glad to say that all the sponsors were immensely pleased with their investment and the AFT is to this day held up particularly at Pepsico as the standard against which other proposed sponsorships are rated.
Needless to say the good track record of the AFT is an important component in the effort to line up the necessary corporate support for "Rocky11".
Seems to me that even by Mr. Mitchells standards(he left out the most recent successful 1996-98 Hoboken-Pt.Jervis 614 program from his list)I'm batting 500 which ain't bad!
Let's hope my batting average is soon to improve further?
Ross Rowland

I am rather anxious to hear more about this "Yellow Ribbon" project. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how you tie in a "support the troops/welcome home" type of program with a steam train traveling the country. I understand the AFT - which was a traveling exhibit of historical artifacts but I can't figure out what this exhibition would consist of.

No flames intended and perhaps this is just the cynicism in me but I can't help but wonder if this is just an attempt to get the 614 out of debt and rebuilt at someone else's expen$e. If this can be done with nothing but private and corporate funding, hey, more power to you. But let me say if this in anyway involves a single tax dollar, I will be the first shout foul and contact my congressman. I love trains, but when I see how much is taken from my paycheck every week it galls me enough as it is I really don’t want the government taxing me to support any rail preservation groups, not just this one. Believe me, that’s a tough stance to take being in the industry and having friends like TJ who need those grants to operate their museums.

On the other hand, couldn't something like this be done much less expensive using Bennet Levin's E-8's and use the income generated to benefit our soldiers who have been wounded lead a better life? Prothetics are very expensive as are continued plastic surgeries and handicap accessible vehicles. A solid business plan which would have a very positive impact to the lives of our verterans would probably go much further in acquiring those corporate sponsors. And if you still need a steam locomotive, well, there are plenty already in operation that could pull the train - saving those rebuild dollars for our vets.

Just a thought.

G

While I suppose the train in question is not so much a "historical" operation as the American Freedom Train was, the same question following questions can be asked of nearly all railroad operations: Why use a steam engine when there are many operating already and why use a steam engine at all?

Frankly, this should make our heads spin. To ask "why bother with this one when we have this one" makes it seem as though our preservation mission is accomplished if we have one engine of any type operational. If Group A restores Steam Locomotive #1 and Group B decides it wants to restore Steam Locomotive #2, then this sentiment asks "why bother, we can just use Group A's engine." In the same regard, my group wants to use a diesel when we could use steam but all of our work on the steam engine goes to hack "because it'd be easier to use the diesel anyway."

Whether or not this project hinges on government funds or corporate sponsorship is what may grind gears (and mine as well, even though I'm reading now that there is really no income tax law...) but while there may be a cluster of steam locomotives operating in the country, you'd have to endure using somebody else's locomotive and incur all lease payments and operational problems, but if the engine belonged to you there's a lot of trouble to be saved.

If some steam operator has a locomotive, has a good business plan, and can benefit his target audience and then some, I'd say it would make most sense. Even if there could have been a "cheaper, alternative way" that doesn't always make things better. Of course, on another front, a steam locomotive mathematically gets more attention than a diesel in special excursion cases like this, and it does so apolitically. If our sacrificing men and women, who represent selflessness and service, are aboard a train that showcases America's railroad history and harmony with supporting the troops in the past, then maybe that's the connection.

My 2 sense...

If Mr. Rowland or anyone else can figure out how to simultaneously honor those few men and women and their families who are making an immeasurable sacrifice for the rest of us, call attention to their needs, and leverage both public and private funds to do it, then I think we need more of that and we all should encourage him.
We all know that a steam engine generates much more interest than diesels, and that the railroad heritage in many parts of this country is not appreciated or known of by the public. A project like this will bring thousands to trackside along with the publicity from local and national media. If 614 gets restored to running condition with some of our tax dollars, well, it certainly won't be the first or last private enterprise that receives a benefit from the public's coffers.

I love trains, but when I see how much is taken from my paycheck every week it galls me enough as it is I really don’t want the government taxing me to support any rail preservation groups, not just this one.

Hmmmm.....ever been to Scranton?

Don't look at a list of ISTEA and TEA21 projects, then.

JAC

Yes, I've seen them, I don't agree with them but I've seen them. Anyone can justify "lawful Plunder" when it benefits their personal cause. Again rail preservation is important to me as well, but I do not see the justification of taking from all for the personal interests of a few. Do we justify those who want to re-dig the canals to retain that history as well? I don't mean to get off topic here but where do we draw that line?

May I respectfully suggest that Mr. Schultz commence immediatly to contact his Congressman(per his above post) and ask for a complete audit of the $5 million plus/annually of "his" tax dollars that are being spent at Steamtown to keep one tea kettle barely limping along. That's happenning now in real life and something he can get his teeth into immediately. I hope he'll keep us abreast of his findings??
As I've stated above the YRE project will be financed in the private sector and the details of the project will be released at the appropriate time(I'm hopeing by years end??), so that you can all share in its progress.
It's a very big project and it may well not get the support needed to happen. Suffice it to say that its primary mission is to celebrate and thank the brave men&women who are so bravely serving us in uniform around the globe.
As to why use steam vs. diesel-that's easy. As the late Walt Disney often said," with a diesel it's a train-with a steam engine it's a happenning!" The YRE will be a "happenning"!.
Thanks for your patience!
Ross Rowland

Here follows a quote from the Disabled American Veterans website:


The total budget DAV has been able to bring to bear on this problem is about $2.4 million since 1989. If you want to thank & honor our veterans, take the money you are raising and donate it to the DAV where it will do some good.

The third post in this thread, from Ross himself, says that this project is to be privately funded. So why are we still talking about tax dollars here?

As to the museum in Scranton, is the 4-6-2 that once sat on Horseshoe Curve really "sucking" tax dollars? I thought that the locomotive in question was being repaired under a contract basis.

While I agree that there should be more operating steam at Steamtown, it looks like this thread is turning it's flames on Steamtown, as many others in the past have.

Personally, I'm glad to see that someone is at least trying to get big steam back in the rails on a coast to coast basis.

To the "Site Administrator" (Doug Bailey?) and others who seem determined to evaluate the Yellow Ribbon Express project without having a serious clue as to its whats,wheres,whys and hows I again plead for patience.
How can you make a comparative judgement without knowing the facts? The answer of course is that you can't.
As I've stated several times above-I'm confident that when I'm able to share the facts of the project with you that 98% of you will find it easy to become a whole-hearted supporter.
Until then, please "keep your powder dry" and relax!
Ross Rowland

But Ross, that's the whole reason the Internet was invented, wasn't it? ;)

JAC