A long time ago I saw a story (here or eleswhere) about a project that made its own wheel profiling lathe (at railhead height) and turned the wheels in-frame. Does this ring a bell with anybody? Was there info on-line about it?

Check with the SPS 700 people in Oregon. I think they are the ones that have such a machine.

I believe that this was the SP&S 700 that had the wheels profiled while in frame. A device to set the wheels (one set) on and turn and peel was made. I remember seeing photos of the operation. Try the SP&S website.

This is something that may only be readily accomplished with a locomotive that is equipped with roller bearing journals. It is an interesting setup though.

Maybe this:

http://www.railwaywheelsrepair.com/

Dunno about steam, but I've personally helped do it on diesel wheels. Take a pair of jacks, jack up the truck, attach the device, and fire up the arc welder and attach it to the traction motor leads...........

http://www.sps700.org/gall0411drivers_part1.html

http://www.sps700.org/gall0411drivers_part2.html

http://www.sps700.org/gall0411drivers_part3.html

http://www.sps700.org/gall0411drivers_part4.html

The 0-6-0 643 group did this too.

Many years ago, Trains ran a photo of 4449 equipped with a brake shoe/cutting tool profile that was profiling the flange of a driver.

Roller bearings shouldn't be an issue. If you have patience, a sharp tool and use a light cut, you can make an accurate profile. The problem otherwise would be a heavy cut causing the wheel to jump around, chatter, and make an inaccurate cut.

Greetings:
Perhaps I missed something, but how were the driver diameters measured and kept within FRA specifications?
J.David

At Williams Grove we squared the axle to the frame and then a home made lathe was squared to the axle and frame. We used a big electric motor belted to manure spreader mechanism modified to turn one wheel with an idler rolling under the other wheel. The axle ran on a couple of turned over car brasses mounted in the boxes. Anyone can run the cutter head making the hog cuts but the craftsman took over for the final cuts. In our case we made a special measuring tool to be sure the final profile and diameter were correct and within tolerences. When we were finished the diameter of the biggest wheel was within a few thousands of the diameter of the smallest wheel. Before we started there was about an inch of difference. You can imagine what the rod brasses looked like before we turned the tires.

Other methods have been used. A now deceased AFT employee who worked on the 4449 sent me photos of the drivers on 4449 being turned in a modern diesel lathe. I still do not know how they determined the wheels to be in tolerence on that job. I have also seen photos of 4449 with cutters mounted on the brakeheads to turn the drivers. Apparently this was fairly common on some of the class 1 railroads of the past. I assume they have a device to determine the wheels are in proper profile.

A couple of things to remember when turning wheels. First you are going to hit hard and soft spots in the wheel. The hard spots are likely to break a lot of tools. Another is to be sure you machine the correct taper and flange on the wheels. I have seen both done wrong with poor results. It takes a good hand to get both right.

The diesel lathes like shown earlier in the thread work well. You still need someone who is familure with proper profiles to get the wheels right. I am not sure how one would go about modifying one of these to turn tires on a steam locomotive but I suspect someone could find a way. Like other such devices I think you will likely have to make a machine specifically designed for your locomotive.

John Bohon

At the risk of stating the obvious, seems to me there's no reason not to send the wheels to TVRR for turning on their equipment specifically created to do the job correctly and efficiently the first time, retaining the greatest possible amount of useable tire for future turnings. They can also handily quarter the crankpins in the process, and polish the journals, giving you a like-new job instead of just profiles. Probably save you significant money in the long run.

dave

The diameter of the wheels(for the 700) were measured with a fish tape, same as TVR does it. The comment I made in regards to roller bearings comes into play with the manner in which the 700 folks accomplished their wheel turning. When the 4449 had her wheels turned (during frredom train days I think...)using a diesel locomotive "wheel lathe" it was on one of the in floor design that uses a profile shell mill equipped with what seems like 100 plus carbide inserts. Also, the grinding brake shoe is something that should only ever be used on the flange, that is if one has a high flange but otherwise good tread profile.
Can all of this be done? Sure, groups have proven this. But, in the best interest of the machine it is advisable to pull the drivers when it is time to have them turned. There are two trains of thought on this: 1) is that if you are having to turn them at a much lower mileage than would be expected, say every 5 years of only running a number of weekend trips on well maintained right-of-way, then one should look into why they are seeing excessive wear...whether it be just general out of tram conditions or missing lateral wear liners off of ones roller bearing boxes. And then, of course, correct said issues even if it means having ol' smokey down for a bit so that a pro can be brought in to do the job. 2)is that if you are getting the mileage out of the machine, then an inspection needs to be done in the interest of protecting the machines long term future...it is easier to fix a small problem the machine can run with than it is to fix a large one that shuts it down.
Dave, you are correct, send them to the people with the only COMPLETE wheel work shop in the country. Also, spend the extra bucks to have them perform an ultrasound inspection of your axles and crank pins, and have them repair the cracks in your wheels as well. Trust me, you have some...

Remember that when it comes to pieces of history(artifacts) we do not own them, they belong to the people of today and tomorrow... we are meerly stewards and it is our role to do what is best for the artifact regardless of any personal wants.

When Williams Grove turned their tires more than 25 years ago the main shop building at TVRM was a pole shed. The wheel shop consisted possibly of the wheel lathe sitting in pieces in a gon at VAP. At the time our total budget for the year was in the range of $5,000.00. Even in the seventies that was a joke.

The tires on 643 were nearly double flanged at the time. The ruts were extremely deep and as I stated earlier the largest tire was 1 inch larger than the smallest tire. On top of that they were on wheels R-1 and R-2. We needed to turn the crank pins, make new rod brasses, and turn the tires to continue running much longer. We had no money but lots of talent and some pretty smart folks. They came up with the idea of turning the wheels under the engine. The tooling was donated as were the parts of the lathe which came from the home machines of members. The motor and spreader mechanism came from the group inventory. A local shop class cast the new rod brass bushings at no cost. Volunteers worked day and night most weekends during a very cold winter with minimal shelter By spring the engine was up and running. Yes she needed more running gear work but we had some time left on the other parts.

In the case of the 4449 on the diesel lathe the work was done while the train was on display. The rods were taken down at the display site. The engine was taken to the shop to have the wheels turned and returned to the display site within hours. Then the crowd was given a great show as the crew hung the rods while the 4449 was on display with the train. Speed was the essence, 4449 did not miss a trip, and the crowd got an unexpected and much appreciated show.

While it is great to have the option of sending the wheels to a shop for work, financially it is not always possble. Williams Grove could not have paid the trucking on the wheels to TN much less the crane to lift the engine even if the TVRM shop had existed in the seventies. The trick is to do things to the best of your ability given the situation you are in. If time and money permit then by all means do things as perfectly as possible. But the real trick to running a railroad is making things work safely while dealing with both a short budget and time frame. You do the best you can and make things work. It has been this way since railroading began and will be so long as trains continue running.

John Bohon

Here's one other bit of info some of you may find of interest. In some of the literature they published on their project, American Coal Enterprises stated that the ACE 3000 was designed to be used with an in-floor wheel truing system manufactured by Hegenscheidt. Furthermore, they claimed it would be possible to turn the drivers in the frame with the connecting rods still installed.

I'm not quite sure how they planned to accomplish that part (rollers or jacks for the other drivers?) but here's a URL for the wheel lathe company:

http://www.hegenscheidtmfd.com/gb/index.htm

Being obvious again, we no longer live in the regulatory and economic climate of the 1970's. Our rusty iron has aged and worn 30 more years (as have we all) while things have become subject to greater oversight and risk of liability.

If I were working on a locomotive that was to be used pretty intensively - pulling decent sized trains at some speed for some distance or any of the above - I'd want to know that the running gear was in very good tested and documented condition.

I seem to recall something about a crankpin shearing and an axle breaking within the past few months. I worked on a locomotive that had a wheel center split in half when the tire was removed. I had a contractor tell me a cracked cylinder / saddle patch was fine, because he thought the casting was fine, because the chips from the drilling looked OK, never mind it was spalling at the edges. When was YOUR last NDT on the wheels, pins, axles and rods?

Choosing to operate without knowing these things under those circumstances may not be the best option, not only for the individual operator involved, but potentially able to cause repercussions for the entire industry.

The engine that operates in demonstration service, lightly used on an occasional basis, can survive with a much more slender margin of documented quality assurance - we need to be careful about drawing the line in defensible and rational ways. Projecting beyond the current plan is also important - what if new management comes in after you are gone, and conditions change? Happened to me.........still getting blamed.

Under many circumstances, I'd argue that if we can't afford to do it right, we ought not to do it at all. How right "right" is, is the question.

dave