Lincoln's Funeral car-- REALLY???

Matt Bumgarner · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:13 pm

What does the RYPN crowd make of this:

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/lin ... al_car.htm

Everyone have a safe and fun holiday weekend!

Matt Bumgarner

HOD Bill · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:34 pm

$6 grand, Huh? I have a bridge I'll sell ya!

car57 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:02 pm

I doubt you could ever positively identify it, which means it would always be 'possibly' Lincolns car, looks to me like the fire destroyed the ends in the old pictures ??

May as well build a replica from scratch, $6000 would get you started quite happily.

mike
cheyenne

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:41 pm

Quote:

The United States, The railroad car that carried the body of Abraham Lincoln to a final resting place, ended its days in Minnesota, suffering a fate almost as tragic as the president's.

Designed and constructed at the U.S. Military Car Shops in Alexandria, Virginia, in 1863-1864, the special car, built to transport a living Lincoln and his cabinet, was one of the most elaborately appointed railroad vehicles in the United States. It had upholstered walls, etched glass windows, sixteen wheels (adaptable to both standard and 5-foot gauge tracks) to ensure a smooth ride, and rooms for working and lounging. The exterior bore a large painted crest of the United States.

Perhaps thinking the United States too ostentatious, Lincoln did not use it. After his assassination, however, the car carried Lincoln's body on a two-week, 1,662 mile journey from Washington, D.C. to Springfield, Illinois. The train stopped in many cities on the way - meeting huge crowds along the tracks - and the president's casket was removed each time for display and public mourning.

Later, the military sold the United States to the Union Pacific Railroad for $6,850. It lasted eight years as an executive car. For $3,000 it fell into the hands of the Colorado Central Railroad, which stripped the car (leaving only the wall upholstery), installed wooden benches, and put it into service as a day coach and later as a common work car.

Thomas Lowry, president of the Twin City Rapid Transit Company, believed the car was "the most sacred relic in the United States." He bought and restored it in 1905. hoping to donate the United States (pictured here in 1908) to a Minnesota organization that would house and preserve it. After his death the car was given to the Minnesota Federation of Women's Clubs.

On March 8, 1911, just months before the federation planned to move to car to permanent quarters in Mendota, a grass fire swept the area of Columbia Heights in which the United States was sitting idle. The car burned completely, and the Hennepin County Historical Society salvaged only a coupling link.

from: http://tinyurl.com/myuuwk

Scot

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

16 wheels? Where are they?

I think a model was made of the car.

If any of the Lincoln car is there, maybe only the ends, the rest reconstruction.

BTW, Lincoln's son ran the Pullman car factory.

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:10 am

dinwitty wrote:

If any of the Lincoln car is there, maybe only the ends, the rest reconstruction.

Din,
see the post directly above yours..
this car at ozark mountain railcar has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual Lincoln car..the original Lincoln car ceased to exist in 1911.

Perhaps someone in decades past attempted to take an old coach and build a replica of the Lincoln car..and over time people got confused and thought it was the actual Lincoln car..but it clearly isnt..no question.

Scot

Mr. Ed · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:58 am

"salvaged only a coupling link." So what did they do, water that link until it grew into two ends?

When I used to play with classic cars, there was a guy who had an old Dodge that was the same model that the Lindbergh kidnapper used. So guess what? He had photos and a write up on a tripod that said this might have been that car.

But if someone has 6k that is just burning a hole in their pocket, go for it.

Later!
Mr. Ed

mincy21 · **Joined:** Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:25 am **Posts:** 125

IF you READ the listing is clearly states the Lincoln info is only a legend! I have personally inspected the car and YES there is no way to back up the info. IT IS ONLY A LEGEND.
John Suscheck/CEO
Ozark Mountain Railcar

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:50 am

mincy21 wrote:

IF you READ the listing is clearly states the Lincoln info is only a legend! I have personally inspected the car and YES there is no way to back up the info. IT IS ONLY A LEGEND.
John Suscheck/CEO
Ozark Mountain Railcar

Then why mention it at all in the listing?
if you know its just a legend, and has no basis in fact, it shouldn't be in the listing at all..because it only leads to confusion..like this entire thread..

Scot

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:56 am

mincy21 wrote:

IF you READ the listing is clearly states the Lincoln info is only a legend! I have personally inspected the car and YES there is no way to back up the info. IT IS ONLY A LEGEND.
John Suscheck/CEO
Ozark Mountain Railcar

and actually..it does not clearly state that at all..
There is nothing on that page about "only a legend"..

ah wait..I found it..
its very difficult to find the description at all..because the page is a million pixels wide..bad page design..

so its clear why no one saw the "disclaimer"..its hard to find! ;)

Scot

Randy Gustafson · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:59 am

Until somebody can produce a Matthew Brady-era closeup photo of the car ends so we can take a close look, it's pretty obvious that all you might have is the ends...maybe. And like John says, if you actually read the listing......there's no misrepresentation there. I salute John, actually, for telling it the way he did.

Now, want to settle the battle?? Somebody submit this one to History Detectives on PBS. Date the wood, look for clues, etc. Find the photos. (that would make a GREAT episode, hey, I'm a fan) I thought the car was COMPLETELY destroyed. Hey, remember that the Flagship Niagara in Erie, PA has a couple of trim pieces in it, and I think a door, from the original ship. That's all. When you take a tour they point that out as the only 'real wood' in the thing.

And the other thing is that you can put any price on it, but the one that gets an accepted offer wins. People play $20 lottery tickets, so the only real question is the value of risk vs. reward.

AHM made the "Lincoln Funeral Car" in HO during the 60's and 70's at least, maybe later, but I remember it as a kit with the four trucks under it and the odd roof. But who knows how accurate that is either. Someplace, in some museum someplace, I've seen a large scale model of it. B&O maybe?

Matt Bumgarner · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:05 pm

(I just made a post, but it disappeared.... If it shows back up and I double-posted, I apologize)

First- I think this thread is more fun than confusion.

Secondly- John at Ozark Mtn has been *VERY* forthcoming with me about this car and another I have inquired about. Very professional in all regards.

Now, that being said, yes, the story is legend, but that does not preclude it from being true.

With a little documentation of the former owner and his passion for Civil War memorabilia, and the presence of burn marks around the ends, that legend would get a lot stronger.

Regarding the newspaper article, as the author of several books, the quote about the survival of only the coupling link could be true or an exaggeration. I would be more inclined to believe that quote if it could be backed up by other contemporary paper accounts.

Thanks

Matt

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:44 pm

well its obvious Ozark didnt *mean* to cause confusion..
but clearly no one saw the disclaimer about "only a legend" until Ozark told us it was there..I looked at the page 5 times and never saw it, until I actually went looking for it..

if the page was designed better, none of this would have ever happened! ;)

IMO its pretty clear the original car burned completely..
yes, the story about "only a coupling link" could be an exaggeration, but I would tend to doubt it..

I think if any bits of the original car survived, it would be well known..being such a historic car and all..

Scot

Stationary Steam · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:47 pm

Suffice it to say that there is not enough information yet to conclude one way or the other. Those who have posted in this thread so far making conclusive statements are not acting like a professional researcher would. I second the idea about "History Detectives", I think this would be the perfect basis for an episode. Someone should drop a hint to the show's producers.

scottychaos · **Posted:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:54 pm

So now the question is..could any part of the actual Lincoln car survived to be a part of this existing car?? (I love these kinds of historic mysteries!)

Matt Bumgarner wrote:

Regarding the newspaper article, as the author of several books, the quote about the survival of only the coupling link could be true or an exaggeration. I would be more inclined to believe that quote if it could be backed up by other contemporary paper accounts.

Thanks

Matt

New York Times, March 20, 1911:

http://tinyurl.com/m5kudd

Not 100% conclusive, but "a mass of charred wood and iron" indicates it was likely fully destroyed..

I dont see how most of the car could be "a mass of charred wood and iron" but the ends somehow be undamaged enough to salvage and re-use..

sorry..but IMO its 99.9999999999% likely its all a myth..

Scot

Lincoln's Funeral car-- REALLY???

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