It is currently Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:04 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:54 pm
Posts: 85
Resurfacing Pedestal Jaws or the outside face of the frame face buy grinding is a lot of work.
I know Underwood sold a machine for doing this job. Also, could use portable milling machine or tool slides for this purpose.
By question has anyone have one of the Underwood Machines or has anyone built a portable mill for this and is available for rent?
I know the Climax Machine rent machines but are expensive at $2500/week plus shipping

Thank you for any information

Dennis Daugherty


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
Posts: 835
Back in early 1990s I rejoined Mid Continent and the then "steam team" were deep into disassembling the Western Coal and Coke #1. The frame was totally accessible which was wonderful as you seldom get to work on the frame of a small 50 ton engine without all the attachments and appendages getting in your way. In this case the frame was extremely gouged and worn from its whole life of running loose and worn out. I do not have pictures of what it started as but the condition of the jaw bearing surfaces were the worse I ever saw. Guess this has nothing to do with renting or borrowing a machine to assist in getting things straight again.

I ended up doing the whole frame by welding and grinding by hand. It was a PIA to do it that way and I dreamed many nights of a better way to approach this repair. Even if I had found one the cost was prohibitive. So not knowing any better I went at it the only way I knew how with the tools I knew how to use. It took me approx 8 hrs to weld and grind each jaw. That was a very solid 8 hrs of my nose to the grind stone {no pun intended} but I could usually get one jaw finished per day I spent down at MC. I burned a lot of rod and then took most of it off with a grinder. I found using a grinding "cup stone" worked so much better and faster than using a "cutting wheel" disc that most people associate with grinding. It soon became trained monkey work as I got better at it. Seriously dull work. You probably saw my work at MC in your visits over the years as not much has been done to the locomotive in the last 20 yrs. The contractor who was working on it said when he began to tram the frame that the ground surfaces were within .001-.008. He thought he was going to have to grind it into tram but it had already been done. Not saying any of this to toot my own horn. I am saying that yes it is a lot of work but the money saved doing it the old fashioned way is a legit option. I would not be afraid to do it that way again. But having the frame stripped down to bare frame made the job much easier. Using a cup stone like a Blanchard Grinder makes for a nice job. It is not rocket science but I suppose finding someone to do that mind numbing work might be a challenge. Wish you luck in finding a fast and easy way to do it. As I said, I dreamed of a milling cutter zipping up and down getting it done so much easier and faster. I did all three surfaces of the jaw which were all gouged and worn using a square and straight edge. Like body work the old fashioned way you just keep taking off and putting on where you need it. I was a fairly good welder already so that part was old hat. If I were an active contractor who did this kind of work I think the portable machine would be the ticket. A very talented mechanic/machinist I think could come up with something that would work. As far as being able to do all three wear surfaces with one machine would be quite a great accomplishment in my book. Probably so dirt simple I would be embarrassed. Good luck on the hunt for this better mousetrap. Sure wish I had found it. On the other hand some jobs just stink so you go do it and hope you don't have to do it often or again.

Thinking over the job that I did, I didn't have to poor the coals on like I did. But I just wanted to get it over with. For me if I allow myself to go slow and come back to it a little at a time I run the risk on not coming back to it at all. I say this as I mentioned it took about 8-9 hrs per jaw to do that work. The people in the shop didn't like me welding and smoking up the shop like I did {winter time} or the noise and dust from the grinding. But they got over it. Unrelated, I was working on a similar project in a round house in MN. I just couldn't believe the people who had shit fits that I was welding 3 stalls away. They acted like the flash was going to permanently blind them and the smoke was going to kill them. If you want to work in a RR shop environment but on your big girl panties. RR shops are not your model railroading basements. This rant has bothered me for some time and guess it just now comes out. Kind of PTSD thing.

Dennis I know you know your stuff and hope I didn't go off the deep end responding like this? I included some old pictures from WC&C #1 project. This might give some insight to what were talking about with "jaws" and finding an easier way to square things up other than an air grinder and cup stone. I have seen some jigs/fixtures that could clamp on to a frame side but I have not seen anything that really did a better job and was that much faster? The contractor who was tramming the frame used a swing arm arrangement with a grinder but stopped as there was no need to do so. Also I have not seen all there is to be seen in this world so keep us informed if you find the answer Regards, John.


Attachments:
12_28_03a frame weld #1.jpg
12_28_03a frame weld #1.jpg [ 31.84 KiB | Viewed 1328 times ]
12_28_03b frame weld #1.jpg
12_28_03b frame weld #1.jpg [ 30.88 KiB | Viewed 1328 times ]
12_28_03d MC frame welding #1.jpg
12_28_03d MC frame welding #1.jpg [ 30.69 KiB | Viewed 1328 times ]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 858
Location: Byers, Colorado
You might want to give Gregg Oakill a call. I can't say for sure he can help you, but he's a pretty handy guy, and he took very good care of us when we needed the cylinders bored on my engine. Tell him I sent you, if you would, please

Oaks Welding and Line Boring, LLC (570) 527 7328 gregg@oakhillindustries.com

_________________
Ask not what your locomotive can do for you,
Ask what you can do for your locomotive,

Sammy King


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:15 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1206
Location: Pacific, MO
Wonder how this was done in steam days in the backshop.
I can picture a huge boring mill with the frame on the table doing the milling. Still have to build up the worn surfaces, but milling them would work in that scenario.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
Posts: 835
Often thought a "floor bar" would be the ticket but the expense of shipping to shop that had one and a crane big enough to handle a frame with saddle still attached might be a constraint. That would be a great approach if the stars aligned or your shop had all that heavy equipment in place. If you had enough bar work to warrant the expense certainly would be an option.

I never saw the ad or pictures of an Underwood machine to do this work but I would of thought for sure they were around. I saw an Underwood facing attachment used to regrind the valve seats on the locomotive above. The tool was made for steam dome cover refacing but adapted to that use. Steve Butler has a portable milling machine from 1906 we used for milling key slot in axle for the Polson #2. One of the neatest bolt on machines I have ever witnessed. IF I had one it would be cleaned up and on display in my living room. I looked at pictures of that and wondered if it couldn't be made to do dual purpose such as resurfacing jaw work? It had automatic feed and distance {xyz I am not a machinist}. For a smaller job I might be inclined to do it the hard way. ON a large job it might pay to make something work. At the time I worked on the WC&C I would of loved to have had a different approach. When I saw Gary Norths swing arm arrangement I was impressed. But in the long run I think I could almost do it as fast. Kind of like John Henry competing with a steam drill. I really like the floor bar, but there has to be a better and cheaper way for this work? While getting everything with in thousandths of an inch is wonderful, I think the tolerances allowed for fitting the shoes and wedges to the frame are fairly large. To make a point that it is not a "rocket science" tolerances needed. I might be wrong there but if so please kindly educate me.

I tried to post pictures of the portable milling machine for cutting key ways. It might be able to be jury rigged to work. But your still faced with keeping the cuts straight the length of the locomotive. So to me this application would not be very fast and more work than just using a cup stone and straight edge?

Regards, John.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6140
Location: southeastern USA
I'm mentally picturing a rig that assembles across the frame and supported on the ground that can be clamped into position with a vertical automatic fed ways powering a powered grinding or milling cutter. Shouldn't be too hard to make something like that from parts of an old planer or boring mill that's scrap otherwise.

_________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by anuses.” William Rogers


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Machining Frame Pedestal jaws
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:05 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:19 am
Posts: 650
Location: Scottsboro, AL
TVRM did a lot of welding and machining on the pedestal jaws of the 630 when it was overhauled back in 2008 or so. I seem to recall some sort of portable milling machine set up for this work but I don't remember the details. Mark Ray or Shane Meador would know for sure.

- Alan Maples


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 51 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: