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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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PMC -

Well, from the video, it looked like the engine brakes worked pretty well. What I wondered about was what the plans were for the unit. Obviously the owners, Engines Preservation, Inc. (whomever they are), spent some bucks restoring the FA2, so they probably have plans for future operation. Currently in a coat of primer, I also wonder how they plan to paint the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: NJ
Brakes were fine; 26-FNL, tested carefully before any movement.


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:10 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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Quote:
(from 2019 - ) "Ex-LIRR 616 is no longer on the Quebec Central. It was sold over a decade ago to the New York and Greenwood Lake Railway in Passaic, NJ ... the cab unit was still located in Passaic [it was moved from the trash-transfer station by the 'new owner']. There has been no word regarding a last "hospital train" to remove the remaining rail equipment on site..."

See Rudy Garbely's post in the NY&GL thread this past Sunday, October 4th (11:23pm) , regarding the move of this equipment -- the 13 pieces, including the FA-1 shell, are all the way to Pennsylvania. At least some of the distance the move was made by M&E SW-1500 #20.

It was kindly donated to the 'Toys for Tots' organization, and will be stored at a location of their choice (presumably reasonably secured). It is scheduled for 'deaccession' in time, but not to a scrapper. Read the other thread to learn how it was routed, and bookmark the organization's contact information to watch for the coming plans.

There is also video, and a few photographic essays, on the Web already. There were many, many railfans covering the move.

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:17 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:25 pm
Posts: 348
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Western Maryland #303 is on the Georges Creek Railway. Currently a cab car but some major components are on site for its restoration.

A couple of visits to the Georges Creek Railway this summer unfortunately indicated no restoration activity on this or any other GCK locomotive, and no activity at all on the line for quite some time.


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 6:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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Updating this thread with information about WM #303: viewtopic.php?p=331578#p331578

Additionally, SP&S #866 may be headed for scrapping in Portland OR: viewtopic.php?p=343008#p343008


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:55 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
The LIRR unfortunately gutted all the FA1's and replaced the PM with alternative Diesel generators. If the SP&S FA1 is still around, it would require a donor engine and electronics. I do think she could be stabilized, repainted, and displayed. ALCO ain't making too many more, nor do I think we'll see a revival. Rather sad to see one go today, knowing full well it's be regretted tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:19 pm
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In regards to SP&S 866, it is possible to restore it as a fully functioning locomotive. However, the time and expense are out of reach of any museum in the nation. Feasability is balancing what is possible and what is practical.

However, there are other use cases for this unit that are within reach. As a non-powered control unit (not unlike how Amtrak configured a number of F40PH locomotives in the late 1990s), SP&S 866 would function well in being MUd with another locomotive, facilitating running locomotives around the train while always keeping a locomotive cab (and horn and headlight) on the point. Off hand, I can think of two specific operations in the region where strategy might offer some advantages: the Oregon Coast Scenic Railroad and the Northwest Railway Museum. Both operations are land-locked, and the lack of a prime mover and other components would facilitate highway movement. For the Northwest Railway Museum, the SP&S 866 would be the first Class I diesel in their collection, and it would complement the other SP&S passenger cars in their collection. On the Oregon Coast Scenic Railroad, SP&S 866 would do well as a companion to Great Northern F7 274 to facilitate run-around movements.

There might be other possibilities in the region as well. The bigger question I have is, where has the current owner of this unit advertised that this unit is available for sale? In my experience, tourist railroads and museums are reluctant to reach out unless a piece of equipment is known to be available. Likewise, a public advertisement has the potential to inspire grass-roots interest to fund preservation. There are some good success stories showing the potential for this.

As a point of reference, this website (from 2005) stated that SP&S 866 was owned by Ed Immel: http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/brooklyn.htm


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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Thomas Cornillie wrote:
In regards to SP&S 866, it is possible to restore it as a fully functioning locomotive. However, the time and expense are out of reach of any museum in the nation. Feasability is balancing what is possible and what is practical.

Well, the Alco PA was in far worse condition when brought up from Mexico (no trucks, engine, generator. electrical panel etc., fire damaged, plus there aren't any 16-cylinder 244s any more). Every so often an intact RS3 is shown as in danger of scrapping here on RyPN, all of that equipment could be used to complete an FA (but not by me).

Thomas Cornillie wrote:
There might be other possibilities in the region as well. The bigger question I have is, where has the current owner of this unit advertised that this unit is available for sale? In my experience, tourist railroads and museums are reluctant to reach out unless a piece of equipment is known to be available. Likewise, a public advertisement has the potential to inspire grass-roots interest to fund preservation. There are some good success stories showing the potential for this.

As a point of reference, this website (from 2005) stated that SP&S 866 was owned by Ed Immel: http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/brooklyn.htm


From what I am hearing it might be the case where the owner has given up restoring it but is not ready to sell it, and the group that owns the location where it is stored is asking him "so, when are you going to finish the FA?" without a serious answer, and is ready to dispose of it, a la Dick Jensen. Speaking discretely with someone from ORHF would be the easiest step in determining its availability.


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:13 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:19 pm
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Quote:
Well, the Alco PA was in far worse condition when brought up from Mexico (no trucks, engine, generator. electrical panel etc., fire damaged, plus there aren't any 16-cylinder 244s any more). Every so often an intact RS3 is shown as in danger of scrapping here on RyPN, all of that equipment could be used to complete an FA (but not by me).


NKP 190 was repatriated in 2000, and when it left Portland in the fall of 2023, it was not yet operational. I'm not aware of a detailed report of what had been accomplished, but I have heard various comments that significant high-voltage wiring remained to be completed. Doyle McCormack is among the most accomplished individuals in railroad preservation, and bringing the entire project to a high percentage of completion is a remarkable achievement. It is a truism in project management that the last 10 percent of a project is the hardest, and this may well prove true here.

In terms of other Alco FA restorations,.

Ex-LIRR 602, nee-L&N 309, ran under its own power for the first time in October 2020. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcYsz1epbPA

This unit left the LIRR in 1987 and began a long road to restoration at various locations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. There is an article that describes this and other LIRR power cars here: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/lirrFA/lirrFA.htm  33 years from acquisition to operation is a monument to steadfastness and perseverance, and the restoration still isn't complete!

Around 2015 (or so), IRM began restoring ex-LIRR 604 (nee-L&N 314), and they have made remarkable progress. The last update from 2020 https://www2.irm.org/blogs/archives/211 ... 92020.html noted that "A significant amount of high voltage traction motor cabling remains to be reinstalled." 

I haven't heard a mention of restoration re-commencing on New Haven FA-1 0401 since the passing of David P. Kornfeld in 2017. viewtopic.php?t=41084

I welcome news about restoration efforts on other former LIRR power cars. 

The complexity of high-voltage wiring in locomotives is very much underappreciated, and documentation is limited as it was not discussed widely in contemporary industry or engineering publications. The work that these restorations are recreating was originally performed by specialized teams within the locomotive builders with specialized engineering teams overseeing legions of skilled men and women. These restorations have all required a combination of extraordinary personal skill and commitment with access to high-quality facilities.

This gets back to my earlier comment about feasibility being a balance of the practical and the possible. A non-powered control unit offers lots of value and is within the practical reach of a broader number of organizations.

Quote:
From what I am hearing it might be the case where the owner has given up restoring it but is not ready to sell it, and the group that owns the location where it is stored is asking him "so, when are you going to finish the FA?" without a serious answer, and is ready to dispose of it, a la Dick Jensen. Speaking discretely with someone from ORHF would be the easiest step in determining its availability.


It would be best for ORHF to make a public statement. This would give clear, concrete information to those who would lead a preservation and fundraising effort, as well as potential donors—all of which are key ingredients for a successful preservation effort that has a broad base of support. 


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:18 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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And perhaps remind them of the sticky on the Interchange: "Before you scrap it, post it to the Classifieds'?

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:08 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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PMC wrote:

SP&S #866 may be headed for scrapping in Portland OR: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 08#p343008

SP&S #866 has been scrapped, from facebook: "[name redacted]
I drove by the site today, only Ice Lake and one of the tank cars are not in a mangled heap on the ground. Never heard back about saving some keepsake from 866 for my dad." Another poster said this: "[name redacted]Update from the owner as of today(02-22): The cab was in extremely bad shape. The 866 is now scrap material."

So it's gone, along with any respect I had for the Oregon Railroad Heritage Foundation. The "aw shucks, you can't save them all" act was the words of an organization with the money from the scrapper burning a hole in their pocket, or already spent, not those of serious preservationists who tried to find it a home.


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:25 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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PMC wrote:
Well, the Alco PA was in far worse condition when brought up from Mexico (no trucks, engine, generator. electrical panel etc., fire damaged, plus there aren't any 16-cylinder 244s any more). Every so often an intact RS3 is shown as in danger of scrapping here on RyPN, all of that equipment could be used to complete an FA (but not by me).



There is a 16-244 in Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:45 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
PMC wrote:
So it's gone, along with any respect I had for the Oregon Railroad Heritage Foundation. The "aw shucks, you can't save them all" act was the words of an organization with the money from the scrapper burning a hole in their pocket, or already spent, not those of serious preservationists who tried to find it a home.


I cannot speak for the specific situation at hand, most specifically the actual condition of the FA in question.

But I have seen many a situation where scrapping of a piece was carried out over the objections of would-be preservationists because turning over the project to "lesser" preservationists would simply be passing on an "albatross." I've personally worked on a locomotive to replace stolen air brake piping and shovel drug needles out of rust holes in the nose, and said at the time, "Do these idiots [the new owners] REALLY know what they're getting into here?!?"

(It turns out I typed almost the exact same sentiments here when I reported its movement nineteen years ago............. and I can't even find photos showing it still exists now!)

If a savior with money, a track record, and a valid-sounding "game plan" steps up to make an offer, it's one thing. If some teenager starts up a GoFundMe page before even asking the current owners about availability, that's another. And I've seen enough f both not to automatically condemn a place that scraps a "lost cause." (Now, letting it deteriorate to an even more "lost cause," that's another issue altogether.)


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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 4:41 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Nova55 wrote:
There is a 16-244 in Canada.

Where?

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 Post subject: Re: ALCO FA cabs in preservation. What is the current statu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:19 pm
Posts: 267
There are several guidance documents in the wider practice of museums regarding best practices for the deaccessioning and disposal of objects.

The American Alliance of Museums has a helpful page: https://www.aam-us.org/programs/resourc ... -disposal/

The Museums Association has a practical.pdf document on its website: https://archive-media.museumsassociatio ... oolkit.pdf

Common themes are being transparent in the decision-making process and clearly communicating with stakeholders (i.e., people who care) throughout the process.

The context for railroad museums is more complex than that for most other museums. With railroad equipment, each piece is often the beneficiary of donations of time and money for incremental restoration, stabilization, and movement. Additionally, there is a real risk of disposal equating to scrap—the antithesis of preservation. Following best practices provides a way to maintain a positive relationship with those who helped with the preservation, and it provides a chance for other organizations or individuals to organize future preservation efforts.

There were many opportunities for ORHF to choose to follow best practices in scrapping.

SP&S 866 and the other equipment that was scrapped. The 2022 Form 990 for the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation (available at: https://beta.candid.org/profile/8384817) indicates that the organization has 15 officers and directors. I would expect that the decision to scrap this equipment came after multiple board meetings and formal resolutions. Additionally, the private ownership of SP&S 866 might have necessitated involving counsel to take adverse possession. Considering the overall context, I would expect that scrapping came at a net cost to the organization.

There were many opportunities and lots of time for the organization to choose a different course of action. If there were outreach efforts made, please share some details. It would be helpful to know about these to complete the historical record.

The post by Alexander D. Mitchell IV (above) reflects my own experience of why railroad museums do not follow best practices. It is a matter of personal and organizational pride and expecting that a preservation super-person will arrive who has the technical capabilities, funding, and divine intuition to know the inner workings of the organization's decision-making process in order to deliver a perfect, well-timed proposal.

Collective efforts have always been the bedrock of railroad preservation, and the combination of successful social media campaigns with crowd funding platforms has demonstrated the potential to successfully raise funds and generate interest from new audiences.

Clear, concrete, and publicly available information from ORHF would have provided information to those who would lead a preservation and fundraising effort and potential donors. Additionally, starting communications at the beginning of the process would give as much time as possible to organize and respond effectively.


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