Banging around this thread the last few days, and with respect to the standards we all love (yay steam, boo internal combustion, yay fast) I keep trying to understand what we're solving for. It's kind of like seeing someone talk about a new smartphone that has features that have been on the market for years already, but they're in a slightly different package, or arranged in a slightly different manner.

What problem is this thread addressing that the market is not already answering in some way?

Operations on the Buckingham Branch have the potential to be well on their well to becoming a Diesel Free Zone™ though the 611 leading portion is quite a lovely show and the vestibule question is likely one that can be addressed in time.

Reading & Northern operates variously sized steam locomotives in various capacities with no diesel locomotives and open windows in a variety of classes (my tickets purchased already booked for this year too).

The 765 operates dozens of trips of late with no diesels, with open windows or open vestibules and sound cars, albeit at lower speeds. Though as noted before, the last mainline*** steam trips in the country which operated around 70MPH or higher appear to have been out of Chicago only 6 years ago (with a diesel on the rear of a few of them since the train couldn't turn on a few of them.)

Not a single person among the 20,000 served by our group over the two years complained about slower speeds and many of the nonfans enjoyed what are normally railfan perks, i.e. the runbys, the open-air car, vestibules, etc. which is part of the mission to radicalize the normal passenger and turn them into the fan for life. I do see some purchasing decisions influenced by motive power, but the offerings sell out regardless.

If the onboard experience, amenities, and customer service are solid, the rest is just cream. First class is the most popular because it is a differentiator, an experience, something you can't necessarily do every day. If a customer is going to go to all of the trouble to drive, get lodging, do whatever, they want to splurge and at least get the bagel and the coffee and the danish in air conditioning too. We've been treating our open-air car as a first-class car, including food service and the like in it, and will be rolling out two more open-air/open window parlor/lounge cars in the future so folks can get their cinders and their tea.

Like first class, steam is a differentiator. Once you get precious about diesels in the consist or speeds, the audience you're speaking to gets narrower and narrower. That's why 90% of our train serves the general public and 10% caters to those that are in the know ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Can this ratio work if it's flipped around? Only if the onboard experience works.

People do ask "can't it pull it the train by itself?" but it's not a purchasing decision. "What's the speed limit here?" they inquire, but they're already on the train. Honestly, the folks usually asking us these questions are trying to plan out their photos and videos lineside and aren't buying the tickets.

But, who are we solving for? Are we solving for RYPN.org? Aren't the market's needs being met already? Not that I don't mind continuous improvement or having standards (it's why we often wind up turning our all-day excursions around overnight so steam leads both ways on despite the extra time, mileage, personnel, expense etc...) Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good, but good should be a champion of great. Lots of offerings out there are pretty good-to-great already.

Edited to add this postscript -- there should really be a thread that lists everything a "mainline" experience ought to have to be successful (profitable, hospitable, marketable, patronized, etc) that is not limited to just motive power exclusivity or speed. We index way too much on the obvious wonky stuff, never the amenities, experience, destinations, or polish.

I would go further to define a "mainline" as a "destination-oriented or experience-driven outing between two or more points that either exceeds a particular speed (30mph?), duration (half day, all day?), or distance (30 miles or greater?)

Make it 30 and it's 2 hours. Passengers get a longer run, it's still a nice speed that feels like you're getting somewhere, and it's less wear and tear on the equipment. Also, if something goes wrong, slower speeds could help there too. Would you rather have the brakes in emergency at 30 or 60? So why push the speed?

There is one practical aside to a higher maximum speed, and that is to be ABLE to stay the hell out of the way of the freight that's paying the bills, and maybe even Amtrak or commuter trains. It's all well and good to plod along at 30-40 mph, but there's no way such a train is going to be allowed on, for example, the BNSF "Transcon" (which will get raised if we want to consider ATSF 3751 and 2926) or the former RF&P in Virginia. Of course, if we're dealing with a main line that barely has any freight and sees Amtrak only three times a week, that's another matter.

But as Kelly Says, let's consider the market. Do most passengers want to go 70 mph? If they want to ride in sealed coaches at 70 mph for long distances, there's this thing called Amtrak that does it daily and it's a lot cheaper.

I agree that 40 mph is a good speed for most trips. Maybe a bit of a sprint at the end of the run to show off? But generally speaking, people aren't there to go fast. Running at 60, you cover a 60 mile section in an hour. Drop to 40 mph and now your trip is an hour and a half. Make it 30 and it's 2 hours. Passengers get a longer run, it's still a nice speed that feels like you're getting somewhere, and it's less wear and tear on the equipment. Also, if something goes wrong, slower speeds could help there too.

The theory might have been to make track speed until they got to the scenic branch the passengers wanted to see.Phil Mulligan

Last lap, Aurora to Union Station, 5632, 91 mph based on stopwatch timing by open vestibule (not by me) late evening. Perhaps a La Crosse trip, out and back. AS stated many times, this was a LOUD locomotive.

. . . and get to West Milton before the diesel train which also had a few photo stops.