Les,
Welcome to the One Man Pullman Restorer's Club. That makes 3 of us now!
While my baby belongs to our Museum, I too, get precious little funding and even less help, although we just got a grant from the local government of around $2,000 to fund 3 marble benchtops.
We also had our first ever "Thomas" weekend last weekend and it was the biggest event in our Society's 40 year history. Hopefully, I may be able to cadge a little share of the profits for AL1040.
Cheers, Bob

Les,
Picking a couple of small nits, the ownership history of the coach should put the Boyne Valley RR ahead of MN (MIGN, actually). MIGN borrowed the cars for the annual Transportation Week trains and after the Boyne Valley collapsed, bought the cars. The two steel sided coaches came across on the Chief Wawatam. There was a third car which made the trip also. I didn't see it, but was told it was a "wooden car" and was destined to a local Boy Scout troop. I have no further information on that car.

The car you have was sold on the courthouse steps in Paw Paw to settle a storage claim filed by the Pioneer RR, successor company to the bankrupt Kalamazoo, Lake Shore and Chicago. As a cautionary note to folks who think passenger cars have great value, the car was sold for $10.00, the only bid. It was set off the rails so it would no longer incur storage charges.

Alex Huff, ex-MIGN

Alex -

Thanks very much for the correction in the cars ownership "string".


Les

Here are a couple images copied from Western Pacific Steam Locomotives, Passenger Trains and Cars by Guy L. Dunscomb and Fred A. Stindt; published by the authors 1980.

Brian -

Thanks for the builders photo and the Western Pacific diagram. Note in the upper right hand corner of the WP diagram that 20 of the 40 cars were sent to the Denver & Rio Grande. As I understand it, the D&RG financed the Western Pacific to give the D&RG a through route (with the CB&Q on the east end) from Chicago to the west coast, to participate in traffic to the Pacific. The problem was that the anticipated passenger traffic over the CB&Q/D&RG/WP was not as great as projected and the WP soon found out that it had more passenger equipment for their end of the service, than they needed. Thus, the "return" of a number of the cars to the Denver & Rio Grande.

Also see the line in the lower right hand corner of the diagram stating that the these 40 coaches were "like D&RG coaches 888 to 898", probably indicating that the D&RG had purchased similar coaches from the Pullman Company. And note that the D&RG renumbering once the cars came back started with 899, the very next number in their series.

Finally, the photo and diagram show that the upper sash windows were rectangular, and not arched windows. Those windows are still in the car, under the steel plating.

Les

The diagram has dates 10-9-11, 7-26-15 and 3-15-12 in the lower left corner.

The text in the book says:The WP also started using 30 all-steel baggage cars (built by ACF in 1910) and 10 all-steel baggage-buffet-lounge cars (built by Barney & Smith in 1909) that were paid for by the D&RG. These also were returned to the D&RG.

The baggage-buffet-lounge cars were later rebuilt into other configurations by the D&RGW. One of these is the baggage car #743 which is at Orange Empire Ry Museum as a stationary exhibit car. It was originally WP 604 then returned to D&RG 983, rebuilt in 1920 to baggage 773 and then renumbered 743 in 1924; retired in 1967 and sold to Even Middleton who converted the car into a stationary exhibit car and the donated to Orange Empire. Middleton Museum of Toy Trains & Americana

Brian -

Thanks for the additional info. With all of these cars going back to the D&RG, and no lease payments coming in from the WP, I wonder how much this had to do with the necessary reorganization of the Denver & Rio Grande as the Denver & Rio Grande Western?

Les

Les and Howard--

While searching for the history of another passenger car, I discovered the existence of a third surviving car from this order, also rebuilt by the Rio Grandé as a business car.

WP (unknown number) to D&RG #893 to D&RGW #924. Rebuilt to business car #102 (2nd) at Burnham shops (Denver) and outshopped in March 1930. Retired in 1964 and sold to Harris Allen (Tucson). Later resold to Clifford Thomas (Minneapolis). Resold in 1971 to Charles Belgarde (Plymouth, MN). Acquired by Carolina Southern. Acquired in 2012 by Iowa Pacific-San Luis & Rio Grande. Acquired by the Central New York Chapter NRHS in 2013 and moved to the New York State Fairgrounds. History paraphrased from below source.

Source:

Central New York Chapter Roster Page: http://www.cnynrhs.org/passngr.html (last car listed)

Update 1/30/2015:

Besides the 2 cars formerly owned by the Kalamazoo, Lake Shore & Chicago RR (1 now owned by Les Beckman and the other as a restaurant in Alamo, MI), the 2 cars converted to business cars by D&RGW (#101 and #102 [2nd]), the BA&P #441 in Mineral, WA, and 1 at a railroad museum in the southeast, I have found the current location of another 1 of these 1910 coaches, as reported in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37213

WP #334 to D&RGW #946 (1/1924) to #954 (2/1936) to Algoma Central #408 (7/1949) to Prairie Dog Central #101 (1/1980) to Manitoba Children's Museum in Winnipeg (9/1993).

Sourced from Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide.

Ted -

Nice find! Maybe someone can furnish a photo in the future. Winnipeg eh?


Les

Les and the forum,

I just found some photos of the WP #302/D&RG #899 while on cribbing in Paw Paw, taken in February 1997 by Tim Shanahan. Also included is a photo of the other nee-WP/D&RG car owned by the KLS&C, which they numbered #917 (which if correct, was Algoma Central #404), as owned by the restaurant in Alamo, MI, taken by Tim in September 1994.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1906034



http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1906035



http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2409045

Ted -

Thanks for the photos. Yes, that is my coach up at Paw Paw, Michigan on cribbing. Note the "small" number 407 near the door and the "incorrect" KLS&C 950 in the center. It's interesting that you posted these because I was at the museum just yesterday, repainting the side of the car below the window rail. When I most recently painted that area, the paint came out "blotchy" (there was a recent thread on this problem). This was my fault as the weather was to cold (low 50's) and we might have also had some rain after I did it. Anyway, I've included two photos showing the bad looking paint and my repainting effort.

I should also mention that the interior shot taken by Mr. Shanahan is also of the 899 and reveals its "unrestored" interior.

Les

Looks pretty good Les.

Is the roof water tight?

What about the interior? Does it still have all of its seats?

It's a pretty neat car, as it still looks a lot like a very early steel car. Very little modernization over the years.

David -

Yes, this was one of Pullman's early steel car orders

Roof - Not as water tight as I'd like it.

Yes, all of the seats are there as you can probably tell from Mr. Shanahan's photo. Perhaps you can see the first seat on the left side of the aisle in his photo, which I believe is the original seat fabric with the horsehair padding. There also were seats reupholstered with "raised" fabric of the type that I believe was used for living room type chairs. Finally, some are in plain fabric in bright orange and green. Much of this seat fabric was slashed when vandals broke into the car when it sat there in Paw Paw.


Les

As mentioned in the Pullman thread, I recently purchased a copy of the "Private Passenger Car Annual: Volume One (1980)" by David L. Briggs and published by W. David Randall's RPC Publications. This volume lists that the Boyne Valley RR had 3 of the Rio Grande/Algoma Central coaches, with the numbering histories given for 2 of these 3:

D&RGW #917/ACR #404 (now at the restaurant in Alamo)

D&RGW #950/ACR #406

D&RGW #9xx/ACR #4xx

This 3rd unidentified car would be the #930/#407 that was mis-numbered by the KLS&C as the #950, and is now owned by Les. Assuming that only 2 of these cars were acquired by the KLS&C from the Michigan Northern, I'm thinking that they got confused about which cars they actually had, hence the mis-numbering. If only 2 cars went to the MIGN and later KLS&C, then I wonder what happened to the actual #950? Perhaps Alex Huff can confirm that MIGN only had 2, and if they did have all 3, what happened to the third car.